Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 ··· 11 12

Original poster

BBC Rupaul Drag Quiz

284 replies

GrimDamnFanjo · 03/10/2019 14:22

Online if you want to take it. You translate the drag phrase.
How nice to see that those putting it together didn't think that "fishy" meaning a very feminine drag queen may be offensive....

OP posts:

Rugersmere · 03/10/2019 21:50

@AngelsSins If you are claiming that all drag offends you then you are simply close minded and ignorant.Drag is simply an art form of changing ones appearance. You say it is a mockery of women yet not all drag is supposed to be fishy, some examples include military realness or schoolboy realness and realness with a twist.

You clearly only know of drag from the little you've seen along with many people commenting here on both sides of the argument. Before you get into a little huff over the hot new topic do research in the rich history of drag because many this is their history and is their way of life. Read about the trans women that did drag as a way to be seen and be stars in a time when they were pushed into the shadows and murdered in back streets. Or the queer community that went to the balls, where many of these phrases originated, to seek a family when their biological family threw them into the streets to die.

These terms aren't making a mockery of you they are used to empower members of the community so don't try and stop them from being used.

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 21:55

These terms aren't making a mockery of you they are used to empower members of the community so don't try and stop them from being used

And what do you think of 'black face' and such? I guess you find that an entirely different issue?

To be honest, i'm finding it difficult to take such responses as yours as valid. To me they seem like parodies; so ill conceived and wilfully blind as to the parallels.I was around the gay male community a lot in my youth, and I never liked drag - and always found it offensive.

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 21:57

Drag is simply an art form of changing ones appearance

And so is fancy dress; and Justin Trudeau presenting himself as a facsimile of a black person. No?

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 21:58

used to empower members of the community

Could you explain for us how gay men dressing up as an exaggerated versions of aggressive femininity empowering?

Ereshkigal · 03/10/2019 21:59

It's not obligatory to fawn over drag, contrary to popular opinion.

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 22:00

These terms aren't making a mockery of you

It is usually the prerogative of the oppressed to say what is demeaning of them. Unless they are women, naturally!

doadeer · 03/10/2019 22:01

I think there is a difference between drag and black face. It's about the privilege of the group doing it and the intention.

In the 18th century "molly houses" were part of pervasive sub culture, estimated to be 30 moll houses in London. That's massive given the population!

They were "safe" spaces where gay men could meet and socialise aswell as engage in sexual acts. Dressing as women and holding pretend weddings was a powerful way they were railing against the patriarchy. Gay men weren't in a privileged position they were highly persecuted! -they would be executed in fact.
Link if interested to learn more at the end.

Others may disagree but I feel like drag comes from a place of dissent against the patriarchy and heterosexual male oppressors. It was an act of non conformity and want to reflect gender fluidity from a group who were marginalised. Blackface is not complimentary, it's a mockery of black people... And it's perpetrated by white oppressors.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/eastendwomensmuseum.org/blog/miss-muffs-molly-house-in-whitechapel%3fformat=amp

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 22:01

It's not obligatory to fawn over drag, contrary to popular opinion

For most people " fawning over drag" involves much personal dissonance.

testing987654321 · 03/10/2019 22:02

not all drag is supposed to be fishy, some examples include military realness or schoolboy realness and realness with a twist.

It's definitely English but what on earth does it mean?

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 22:02

I think there is a difference between drag and black face. It's about the privilege of the group doing it and the intention

So are you suggestig that men are nor privileged over women?

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 22:03

suggesting that men are not privileged over women

doadeer · 03/10/2019 22:04

It is usually the prerogative of the oppressed to say what is demeaning of them. Unless they are women, naturally!*

Agree 100% with this but it's not correct to say it's only women who's opinions are invalidated. DH is black and god forbid you explain to someone why a term or idea is racially prejudiced... Good luck if they listen without rolling their eyes and saying you're playing the race card.

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 22:05

In the 18th century "molly houses" were part of pervasive sub culture, estimated to be 30 moll houses in London. That's massive given the population!

Just because they were a part of the sub-culture does not take away from their representation of women. Black music was a part of a certain white sub-culture from the 1950's onwards......

doadeer · 03/10/2019 22:06

I think homosexual men face a lot of prejudice, violence and discrimination - it's overly simplistic to say they are "more privileged than women"

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 22:09

Dressing as women and holding pretend weddings was a powerful way they were railing against the patriarchy. Gay men weren't in a privileged position they were highly persecuted! -they would be executed in fact

Yes, none of this is in dispute; but the fact remains that the embodiment of female/woman/feminine is/was and always has been considered second class and despicable. that gay men have flaunted their 'femininity', even in costume form - feels to many/most women as just the same as a white person flaunting their blackness/black credentials - when being black was/is seen as being a second class and inferior status to be mocked and sent up.

Rugersmere · 03/10/2019 22:10

@Justhadathought I never said gay men I am referring to when these terms were made in the ball scene to empower the trans women that were fighting for their rights to present as women. Because at the end of the day they were not men and not all were gay.

Mac1990 · 03/10/2019 22:11

The End.

Goodnight.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 03/10/2019 22:12

But of course this thread is about the word 'fishy'. Which a pp just used in their post defending all things drag. Which was really fucking offensive and they must surely have known that?

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 22:13

I think homosexual men face a lot of prejudice, violence and discrimination - it's overly simplistic to say they are "more privileged than women"

This is not in dispute; but as a woman with a history of involvement in the male gay community, I suggest that 'male privilege' in gay men is all too evident, and always has been. Gay men do not like to view themselves in this way, though, and are very resistant to seeing it in themselves; but let me tell you it is very much there. And because it is denied and falls into the 'blind spot' - it can even be more virulent than in straight men, at times.

Justhadathought · 03/10/2019 22:15

Because at the end of the day they were not men and not all were gay

Trans-women are men, though.....I'm not sure what you mean?

Rugersmere · 03/10/2019 22:16

The difference between black face and drag terms is the intent and how they are used. Black face is used by a group in power to put down an oppressed group.

Ball terms were made by and are used towards the queer community to empower the women that had transitioned or were transitioning as they were trying to present as feminine as possible because that's wasn't how most of the world would allow them to be viewed.

Ereshkigal · 03/10/2019 22:18

They aren't women though. Women are a different oppressed group oppressed for different reasons mostly due to their female bodies.

Ereshkigal · 03/10/2019 22:20

Why is it ok with you for one oppressed group (gay men/trans MTFs) to put down another (women)?

Mac1990 · 03/10/2019 22:22

Can't we all just be oppressed together?

I'm sure that there are more pressing matters in the world.

Toseland · 03/10/2019 22:22

Blackface is not complimentary, it's a mockery of black people... And it's perpetrated by white oppressors
Drag is not complimentary, it’s a mockery of women... and it’s perpetrated by men
It needs to be treated like ‘blackface’ and left in the past.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 ··· 11 12

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet Log In

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread