Abortions

[ILikeyourHairyHands]

I'm not sure MN is the place for women to come for advice about abortions as so many forced-birthers or even 'I could never have an abortion" people/shills come on to every thread where a woman's in a terrible situation and is wavering.

I would advocate abortion in every circumstance a woman will be tied to an abusive man, I really hate the rhetoric that abortions are to be regretted or will cause pain. I think that the idea that abortions are or should be regretful or morally bound is very harmful to women.

Morally I agree with termination up until birth. I know that's an inflammatory position, but I think it's an humane one. And one that would be chosen by few desperate women.

But I think until the point of birth a woman must have volition in law.

This whole situation was awful for everyone.The only person who got anything good out of it was us who gained a son and my son who gained parents

Your son gained rather more than just parents- he gained his life. Your post sets out the argument that anyone saying adoption isn't an option over a late term , no need for a reason abortion needs to argue against.

Is adoption worse than not existing at all? Someone mentioned the poor outcomes in adoption. Isn't that to do with the fact many adoptions come far too late and the damage has already been done?

You believe in abortion until birth? 🤔.

Are you honestly for real? I hate shaming people but you feel more rotten about some weight gain on the pill than you do about 5 abortions?

Stop smoking and buy some bloody condoms for christ sake

clitherow's post is vile but hardly unpredictable given the OP's stance

No it's not vile, it's the truth - the position that the termination of full-term foetuses is ethical is vile.

PPs have said feminist campaigning on abortion in mainland UK should be about maintaining the status quo and timidly not rocking the boat.

I think this is foolish, complacent and naive. The legislation we have is not elective termination. It's a reluctant, gatekept piece of legislation dating from the 1960s. What works in practice now is fragile, not supported by the actual legislation. It needs to change.

Women's rights are fragile. Our rights to sex-based spaces and services are disappearing at a rate of knots currently thanks to one anti-woman political movement. If anyone here thinks that a different flavour of anti-woman political movement wouldn't be able to do similar with abortion, then they are dangerously complacent. We should be working towards a change in legislation to cement our reproductive rights: not timidly clinging to the workaround we have.

As to term limits - honestly? Largely irrelevant. As I said earlier: women already make good choices with regard to termination. Only 2% of terminations take place after 18 weeks - about 4,000. Roughly 3,900 of those are for foetal abnormalities and almost all the rest have the kinds of story attached to them that exceptions would be made for anyway.

Women almost never choose a late term termination unless the circumstances are exceptional.

If you want abortion to happen as early as possible, the only evidenced factor to consider is accessibility. Term limits are simply irrelevant. Access is all.

Abso fucking lutely.

Lang that's all very passionate and echies what I've been saying in the main

I simply don't think that agitating for abortion for choice to birth is a sensible tactic when fighting for better laws around abortion, here or elsewhere in the world.

You say term limits are irrelevant. But they aren't to the politicians and society in general when deciding what the law is.

You are shooting yourself in the foot with this, to my mind.

I just can't see eg NI suddenly going OK you know what we'll legalise abortion to term for choice. Not going to happen.

The women who see this are not weak or complacent but pragmatic.

We will have to agree to disagree.

'Is adoption worse than not existing at all?'

I never understand this.
Like when people say would you rather never to have existed.
If you have never existed then you don't have any opinions as you never were.

You are shooting yourself in the foot with this, to my mind.

Do you mean OP is?

I'm saying the legislation should change from gatekeeping on mental health grounds to elective because as it currently stands, it could be taken away in a heartbeat.

I'm saying that although I support to term abortion, there's little point in campaigning for it since it won't happen much and when it does, it'll be covered by the exceptions we already have.

But the feminist belief can never be that society has the right to control a woman's body for her. What I take as a philosophical position is not the same thing as what I prioritise as political ambitions.

And continually saying that a feminist position can't be articulated, even on a feminist forum, for fear the nasty ones will read it - well, that's not a position I'm ever going to take.

Fraggling, you would have existed if you were a 39 week term baby that doctors and midwives had to kill/slaughter and remove you from a womans vagina/stomach.

You'd have existed to those doctors, midwives and nurses. They'd have seen your face, your hands, your body and have to live with knowing they were disguarding a viable and healthy life into the incinerator like it was nothing all because a woman wants to exercise her right to her choice for a full term abortion when, unless she part of the 0000.00001% of women that get to term not knowing they are pregnant, could have had one before 24 weeks or just took the pill instead of being upset about gaining a few pounds like the OP! Or, silly of me to say, used a bloody condom 😣.

I find it hard to believe that a vegan, someone who won't even eat an unfertilised egg that has been dropped out on the grass from a hen and would be otherwise wasted if not eaten, is happy and pushing for full term abortions. The mind boggles.

Perhaps an angle to make herself feel better over 5 abortions, who knows. It will never happen thankfully!

Fraggling

'Is adoption worse than not existing at all?'

I never understand this.
Like when people say would you rather never to have existed

If you have never existed then you don't have any opinions as you never were

The question wasn't intended for the theoretical non- person but for the posters who are saying that in a very late term abortion adoption isn't a solution. Why isn't it? As far as I can see the reasons against it are it would be too traumatic for the women and/or adoption often has a poor outcome.

I think this is foolish, complacent and naive. The legislation we have is not elective termination. It's a reluctant, gatekept piece of legislation dating from the 1960s. What works in practice now is fragile, not supported by the actual legislation. It needs to change

You do know that opinion polls in the UK consistently show support amongst women for reducing the current 24 week limit. So good luck with the campaign to remove any time limit.

I'm pro choice and think abortions should be elective as women are perfectly capable of knowing if they should bring a life into this world or not.

The current time limits were set on the advice of the Royal College of Obs and Gynaecologists (I think I read that somewhere -happy to be corrected) and seem about right to me.

I think elective until term is too emotive for the general population to reasonably debate and as it doesn't happen in reality is not necessary to campaign for.

A woman would have to be in an extreme circumstance to want an abortion that late and therefore, should be given a lot of support to help her deal with the situation and the baby if it's born.

So good luck with the campaign to remove any time limit.

Is anybody on this thread actually reading anyone else's posts?

Please read what I say if you're going to respond to it.

I said the legislation should be changed from gatekeeping to elective and the term limit - although I don't support it - is irrelevant so not worth campaigning to change.

And continually saying that a feminist position can't be articulated, even on a feminist forum, for fear the nasty ones will read it - well, that's not a position I'mevergoing to take

I don't think anyone has said views can't be articulated. But the assumption that extremist views on any matter which are dangerous should not be challenged is not a position I'm prepared to take.

The women who see this are not weak or complacent but pragmatic

Indeed. But presumably some posters would prefer to retain their ideological purity.

Please read what I say if you're going to respond to it

Why do you assume a response is only to you? The OP's premise is there should be abortion on demand for no reason and to term. My response was directed to her and others who think that is a reasonable and achievable objective.

I said the legislation should be changed from gatekeeping to elective and the term limit - although I don't support it - is irrelevant so not worth campaigning to change

Like the Republic of Ireland then? With its 12 week cut off resulting in women still travelling to England with its oppressive "gate - keeping" system.

The cut off is very important and at the moment options for women in England, Wales and Scotland are better than in Ireland.

Why do you assume a response is only to you?

Because you quoted me and used the second person. You did not make a general point: you responded to me. Perhaps make general points more clear in future?

Like the Republic of Ireland then? With its 12 week cut off

I am beginning to doubt your reading comprehension. Obviously not. Why would I, with my philosophical support for to term abortion but political pragmatism support for UK status quo of 24 week term limit, make you say such a thing?

I've been perfectly clear where I stand. If you're going to respond to me, please do it in good faith.

You said As to term limits - honestly? Largely irrelevant

The term limits are very far from irrelevant. Ireland makes much play of its "abortion now available on demand" (but please read the small print - only for 12 weeks)

It's that kind of attitude that couches the whole discussion in shame and that gives the idea that it's something wrong.

Well it's hardly ideal is it? It's not right or wrong, it's just what is best for the person in the situation. It's also not something that most people would be proud of either, they shouldn't feel shame, but most people wouldn't go around shouting it from the rooftops, because it's an emotive subject, and a pretty upsetting decision for most and not something they want to discuss.

I don't think you are the best person to be fighting "as late as necessary, for any reason" corner there OP. You are proving the point of the pro life campaigners, that some women take advantage of access to abortion in this country, and take it that, because the option is there, they can be careless with contraception and just have "a moment of passion one night". I really don't think it's relative how many years the abortions you've had spanned over.

Most of the threads I've seen on MN where a woman is looking for advice on abortion, are usually woman who are unsure of whether they want to go through with an abortion, but can't see any other way of dealing with the situation they are in. It can be a very confusing time and most of the posters on MN are encouraging them to do what they actually WANT to do. Giving them advice on how they can get help.
A lot of mners have been through abortions themselves and know they can be very hard to deal with physically and emotionally, they also know that many people DO regret having them, and wouldn't wish that feeling on anyone. A woman who is going to have an abortion, and knows that it IS the best thing for her, isn't likely to post on MN asking for advice.

AMAM I'm confused by your response to me.

I'm not a vegan.

Nowhere in the world allows abortion at 3 9 weeks for choice, as far as I know, I would be very surprised if they did.

As to the exist part. It's a bit more of a philosophical question than probably relevant here, going into things like consciousness etc. Or maybe it does have relevance, and links into people's views on abortion.

Interesting.

Oh reread

OP is a vegan is she. I had missed that.

Any time for any reason.
As early as possible, as late as necessary.
Women don't suddenly decide to abort their pregnancy at 39 weeks.

No they don't so why do some prople focus on it so heavily.

It's a highly emotive thing to focus on and a misogynist one.