Abortions

[ILikeyourHairyHands]

I'm not sure MN is the place for women to come for advice about abortions as so many forced-birthers or even 'I could never have an abortion" people/shills come on to every thread where a woman's in a terrible situation and is wavering.

I would advocate abortion in every circumstance a woman will be tied to an abusive man, I really hate the rhetoric that abortions are to be regretted or will cause pain. I think that the idea that abortions are or should be regretful or morally bound is very harmful to women.

Morally I agree with termination up until birth. I know that's an inflammatory position, but I think it's an humane one. And one that would be chosen by few desperate women.

But I think until the point of birth a woman must have volition in law.

And it looks as if the OP was quite correct... Don't come to MN assuming pro-choice support. You may get all manner of 12-week-limit/Christian opinion and drawn into an explosive row. I too thought the OP was being unfairly troll-queried but watching this thread have wondered about your motives. Why not just raise the support issue and whether women in a dilemma could find gentle, balanced support here... Instead of which giving your own strong view just lit the touchpaper and got everyone publicly fighting. I'm completely with you btw, but I guess the conclusion is that you can't rely on support here as abortion is way too emotive. Women in need should go to professional services to talk it through.

And *AMAM it's a bit disingenuous to say you ' hate shaming people'. You seem to quite enjoy it.

And thanks to Lang for some civil and calm reason.

You said "As to term limits - honestly? Largely irrelevant"

The term limits are very far from irrelevant. Ireland makes much play of its "abortion now available on demand" (but please read the small print - only for 12 weeks)

Seriously? I'll repeat: please don't cherry pick my posts in order to misrepresent what I said. If you don't understand what I said, ask for clarification. Either your reading comprehension is lacking or you're in bad faith.

My post was clear as referring to the legislative framework in mainland UK:

PPs have said feminist campaigning on abortion in mainland UK should be about maintaining the status quo and timidly not rocking the boat.

Nothing to do with Ireland. If you can read my posts on this thread and assume that, were I in Ireland, I'd not be campaigning for extension to its term limit, then I really can't help you. Try reading what I say.

I've been away for a few days, but just to answer a few questions,

I'm not a vegan, I'm not sure where that sprung from.

I started this thread because I was musing about another thread where a woman in what was clearly an abusive relationship was thinking that she couldn't have an abortion because she didn't think she'd be able to cope with it, despite never having had one before. And that got me thinking about the way abortion is seen, that there's a rhetoric that it's something that women will definitely regret, or find difficult, and many posters like to pipe up to confirm this point (despite never having had an abortion themselves).

I mention my abortions not to be inflammatory, but just to be honest, I don't think such discussions should be emotive, they should be honest, about women who exist, not vague notions of moral proprietary and sentiment regarding potential humans.

My opinions were formented in the cauldron of a catholic school, at 14 we were told simultaneously that sex before marriage was heinous, contraception wrong and then were all marched in to watch a video by Life, the pro-life organisation. Even at 14 I could see this was profoundly anti-women, so duly marched out and staged a one-(adolescent)-woman protest, and was largely vilified by my peers. But even through the shouts of 'slag' and 'so you'd have an abortion then baby-killer' (I'd never even kissed a boy), I knew that they weren't their true opinions, their opinions had been formed by a hostile environment.

And I think at that moment I realised that women were shamed for their choices and not allowed to own their own bodies.

And that's pretty much why I think as I do and why I belive what I belive. I'll leave it to more nuanced posters such as Lang to argue my points. I'm too intransigent and I'm not brilliant at presenting myself sympatheticly, I dig my heels in.

But I stand by what I say. I believe in complete bodily autonomy for women as a philosophical standpoint, and an intrinsic part of that is abortion to term.

"that there's a rhetoric that it's something that women will definitely regret, or find difficult, and many posters like to pipe up to confirm this point (despite never having had an abortion themselves)."

Yes there's a lot of that going on in another thread right now. It's those who are obviously anti-abortion pushing as fact things they have no understanding of because their own stance means they probably won't ever have an abortion.

But OP you must recognise that some women could be confident that they would regret an abortion if they had one? And that this is not necessarily as a result of shame/the patriarchy etc.?

I know that in normal circumstances (ie leaving aside situations where it is medically necessary, and I genuinely don't know how I'd feel if I were raped) I would not want an abortion and would regret it afterwards. For me, this stems from a strong aversion to doing harm to anyone including to foetuses. I am a vegan and do not wish to cause harm or pain to any other being if it can be avoided. I see a foetus as a life rather than a "potential life" as you put in your last post. This conviction is so serious that I didn't lose my virginity until I was nearly 30 and in a relationship with a man who I thought would make a decent father if I ended up accidentally pregnant.

I am aware that foetuses are not capable of feeling pain in the first two trimesters so would not judge anyone who availed themselves of the option to terminate. But nor do I wish to see the time limit for obtaining a legal abortion extended and think your views are extreme to say the least.

I wouldn't and don't go on posts where women are considering termination and say "You'll regret it" or "I would never have one." I don't know whether they would regret it and I don't think me telling them that I wouldn't want one would be helpful. But you are acting like everyone who thinks abortion is a big deal and more serious than having a tooth filling has been tricked into that by sexism. That's not the case for me.

I always struggle to believe that people who cite the possibility of regret/loss-related pain for women having abortions, are genuine in their concern. Yes of course, we can note that is a possibility to add to the decision-making, and ensure women have access to good pre and post-abortion counselling from nonprofit healthcare providers, (not evangelical Christians).... but those who want to stop it 'because it's bad for women', I suspect are really just anti-abortion on the grounds of prioritizing the foetus. We can all agree abortion is bade for women where women don't have the means or support to go ahead with a wanted pregnancy - in those cases it's disappointing they're not focussing their efforts on economic and political improvement for poor and unsupported women, rather than waving placards with womb contents at those same vulnerable women.No abortion is pleasant, there's a wide range of response from distress at the time, to great relief and feeling it was the best decision, through to some who do regret it. That's not a reason to ban it - women aren't idiots and know that with any choice decision, they may regret the route they took. That can be part of the decision-making process but not a reason to stop all women accessing it. And Stinky, you show that the decision would not be very difficult for you because of your beliefs, so you might not need much help deciding what to do. Possible regret sits with all the other factors a women would consider when choosing what to do. It's used frequently as an argument from pro-lifers to stop everyone accessing it. Yes some women do regret it and suffer greatly, but that is sadly and commonly used by the evangelical right as grounds to stop abortion generally. Most choices come with a cost; don't forget that for many women their historical abortions are something they have no regrets about whatsoever.