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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Abortions

233 replies

ILikeyourHairyHands · 28/09/2019 22:38

I'm not sure MN is the place for women to come for advice about abortions as so many forced-birthers or even 'I could never have an abortion" people/shills come on to every thread where a woman's in a terrible situation and is wavering.

I would advocate abortion in every circumstance a woman will be tied to an abusive man, I really hate the rhetoric that abortions are to be regretted or will cause pain. I think that the idea that abortions are or should be regretful or morally bound is very harmful to women.

Morally I agree with termination up until birth. I know that's an inflammatory position, but I think it's an humane one. And one that would be chosen by few desperate women.

But I think until the point of birth a woman must have volition in law.

OP posts:
Drogosnextwife · 29/09/2019 15:17

I can't really see the point in this thread OP. You have an extreme veiw, fine. Did you start this thread to push your extreme veiw on others, and if they don't agree, they are wrong, and not a "proper feminist"?
We get it, you are a very confident woman, and by the sounds of it quite a careless one. After one or to accidental pregnancies, which of course do happen, surely you would be taking birth control very seriously? Why would you put your body through that 5 times? If I had had to have 4 abortions because of failed contraception, there is no way I would risk having another unwanted pregnancy because of a "moment of passion". Could your dh not have had a vasectomy, could you not have doubled contraception, after the first 4? I believe abortions are necessary. I would say its people who take advantage of knowing they can have multiple abortions for any reason i.e they got a bit carried away one night, that make some people feel a bit uncomfortable with the concept of "as early as possible, as late as necessary, for any reason".

So what was your motivation for starting this thread OP? You are not looking for advice, you are not offering advice, are you trying to get people on board to change the law? Are you just trying to start a thread on a subject which you know will rile people up?

Newbie1981 · 29/09/2019 15:19

Was trying to read the full thread and then saw "5 abortions" and gave up! Good god!

Barracker · 29/09/2019 15:19

In what way don't adults have full control over their own bodies?
Do we criminalise a person for amputating a body part?
Do we criminalise a person for attempting suicide? No.
Bodily sovereignty is the right to make all decisions relating to one's own body, whether beneficial or harmful to oneself.
Even after death, we respect the wishes of a person about their body.

Parents act in a child's best interests until they have the capacity to act in their own.

As to requiring arguments to be more palatable to those who'd like to remove even more autonomy from women, well, this is Mumsnet, not a negotiating table where women plead only to be a little bit enslaved for a little bit of time because that's not so much to ask really.

It is entirely valid to take the position that all humans with capacity should have sacrosanct healthcare control over their own bodies at every point and be able to act in their own best interests without impediment or sanction.

It only sounds extreme or unpalatable because it seems inconceivable for women to assert unbreakable autonomy over themselves. Because we don't hear women dare to say this enough. Because let's face it, we ought to be grateful for having freedom some of the time, and the price is to accept being owned part of the time, by others.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.
And always my body, my choice.

Fraggling · 29/09/2019 15:25

'well, this is Mumsnet, not a negotiating table'

There are a lot of women on mn, an awful lot, who form part of society, and who count towards public opinion.

It's not a closed forum for theoretical debate, not that theoretical debate is bad.

It is read by a lot of people and the tactic of putting forward an extreme opinion in order to try and show how awful these feminist types are happens all the time.

OP said it was a general abortion thread but mentioned till term twice in first 3 posts.
Another poster saying they have no squeamishness about abortion to birth.

I remain dubious.

DecomposingComposers · 29/09/2019 15:26

Do we criminalise a person for amputating a body part?
Do we criminalise a person for attempting suicide? No.
Bodily sovereignty is the right to make all decisions relating to one's own body, whether beneficial or harmful to oneself.

But we don't have bodily sovereignty.

As regards amputating a body part - you would need to get a Dr to agree to do it, which would be very difficult if not impossible, unless you.plan on hacking your leg off in the back garden.

Suicide I believe is still illegal, or was until very recently. Though not sure what the punishment could be.

We also can't choose what happens to our bodies in all circumstances. I want, and need, an operation but no one will do it because I'm too young - how then do I have full autonomy over my body?

If I wanted to choose euthanasia I couldn't in this country so again, we don't have full autonomy over our bodies, it doesn't just apply to abortion.

Fraggling · 29/09/2019 15:29

And abortion for choice at 3 9 weeks is extreme and unpalatable.

It also would hardly ever happen as women are not flakey irrational creatures.

So continually raising it, what is the point? It also props up the people who want to take our rights away, by agreeing that women are irrational. That we want and need abortion to birth, for choice.

I suppose maybe I'm just more pragmatic and thinking about real life. Rather than theory.

Fraggling · 29/09/2019 15:30

Suicide hasn't been illegal for a long time in UK.

clitherow · 29/09/2019 15:31

This reply has been deleted

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CeliaMulcaster · 29/09/2019 15:32

So what was your motivation for starting this thread OP? You are not looking for advice, you are not offering advice, are you trying to get people on board to change the law? Are you just trying to start a thread on a subject which you know will rile people up?

Those are good points.

Yesterday was International Safe Abortion Day. Was the thread prompted by that?

www.september28.org/

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 29/09/2019 15:53

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HauntedPinecone · 29/09/2019 15:56

What a bizarre post clitherow. What does the situation you talk of have to do with the OP? Did you use emotive words like cradling and "beautiful creature" for some special reason?!!

A wanted baby is not comparable to an unwanted one. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

I agree with your points OP. I also have seen many many threads on which the OP is advised to continue a pregnant when the best course of action would clearly be an abortion. I myself have had two, I don't feel guilt or regret at all and I would have another if I needed it without hesitation.

Barracker · 29/09/2019 15:57

So far beyond acceptable, clitheroe.

There will be women on this forum who have had late term abortions - whose reasons are NONE of your business. And reading your utterly vile, judgemental and hateful pronouncements on them is beyond acceptable.

Away with your bile.

Fraggling · 29/09/2019 15:59

Haunted, Clitheroe post is about abortion to the point of birth, for choice.

Her reaction is exactly the reason that anti abortion types like to focus on this theoretical, not legal anywhere (be amazed if it is), position.

Fraggling · 29/09/2019 16:01

There will be women on mn who have had abortions at 37 weeks for choice, not because of any medical reason?

I'd be surprised.

CeliaMulcaster · 29/09/2019 16:05

clitherow's post is vile but hardly unpredictable given the OP's stance.

MN is not a closed forum. Comments made on threads regularly appear in the main stream media and will provoke reactions like Clitherow's. Some of those reacting may well be in a position to affect change.

And abortion for choice at 39 weeks is extreme and unpalatable

It also would hardly ever happen as women are not flakey irrational creatures.

So continually raising it, what is the point? It also props up the people who want to take our rights away, by agreeing that women are irrational. That we want and need abortion to birth, for choice

I agree with all of the above.

I suppose maybe I'm just more pragmatic and thinking about real life. Rather than theory

The theory being infused with a high degree of superiority and moral purity too with no regard to reality.

CeliaMulcaster · 29/09/2019 16:06

....effect change.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 29/09/2019 16:08

@Fraggling well it would be illegal (rightly so) and so I very much doubt it.

Sagradafamiliar · 29/09/2019 16:09

There are no such women on MN reading this because it doesn't happen.

Fraggling · 29/09/2019 16:10

And yet they are being staunchly defended.

Fraggling · 29/09/2019 16:11

Christ this thread is turning even me off and I'm a crazed feminist from the dittany days.

That takes some doing.

BogglesGoggles · 29/09/2019 16:12

Not everyone has your moral standard. I don’t. But I know where the line lies for me so if I found myself pregnant tomorrow I wouldn’t need to seek advice. Not everyone knows where their own morality lies, they should be able to go wherever they want for advice and to hear about other people’s experiences if they think it would help them. At least on mn you get the full spectrum of moral opinions to choose from.

BogglesGoggles · 29/09/2019 16:15

@Fraggling the point is that by legalising it the law permits it. If we enacted a law allowing parents to kill their children it would rarely happen but that doesn’t Male the law ok. The likelihood of something legal coming to pass is irrelevant.

LangCleg · 29/09/2019 16:17

I remain dubious.

Dubious about what? You seem to be continually troll hunting OP throughout this thread. Stop it.

Wheelson · 29/09/2019 16:19

I've always considered myself pro-choice but I can't agree with abortions up to full term. I think if you were to take a poll, very few people would, even those staunchly pro-choice.

I think perhaps though, I am more morally judgemental than I previously thought and not just about very late term abortions.

Fraggling · 29/09/2019 16:21

Boggles so your fight is to get abortion for choice to term in uk legalised?

Abortion isn't for choice in uk at all at mo, and in ni of course its illegal. You don't want to start there?