Abortions

[ILikeyourHairyHands]

I'm not sure MN is the place for women to come for advice about abortions as so many forced-birthers or even 'I could never have an abortion" people/shills come on to every thread where a woman's in a terrible situation and is wavering.

I would advocate abortion in every circumstance a woman will be tied to an abusive man, I really hate the rhetoric that abortions are to be regretted or will cause pain. I think that the idea that abortions are or should be regretful or morally bound is very harmful to women.

Morally I agree with termination up until birth. I know that's an inflammatory position, but I think it's an humane one. And one that would be chosen by few desperate women.

But I think until the point of birth a woman must have volition in law.

I am open about my own abortions because I think women shouldn't be judged and I think there should be no shame attached, I really don't care what people think about my choices, they're mine. Your snipes don't bother me.

Gold dust to the anti-abortion lobby possibly, if you see abortion as a moral failing. Which I don't. If it's morally acceptable to have one abortion, it's morally acceptable to have 100. It's only seen as unpalatable to have multiple abortions if you see it as an unsavory act, as a moral failing in the first place.

A modern and human society should make no such judgements.

Gold dust to the anti-abortion lobbypossibly, if you see abortion as a moral failing. Which I don't. If it's morally acceptable to have one abortion, it's morally acceptable to have 100. It's only seen as unpalatable to have multiple abortions if you see it as an unsavory act, as a moral failing in the first place

You know perfectly well anti-abortionists see it that way. The kinder amongst them can and will distinguish between an inexperienced teenage girl or a rape victim who had no control over her circumstances and an adult women who gave preference to carrying on smoking over using effective contraception.

If you don't think the latter is ammunition in arguing the case against abortion you are deluded. The bottom line is in most cases a pregnancy will lead to a birth. Abortion does prevent the existence of another human being. For many people the "can't be bothered to use effective contraception " is too trivial to justify abortion.

You presumably think you are a good feminist- personally I think you are giving ammunition to those who want to limit abortion rights.

Where am I seeing it? On every bloody thread that isn't posted in pregnancy choices when women post about horrible situations. Yes, there are mostly supportive posters but there are always posters that tell women 'you never regret a child' or that abortion will traumatise them.

I appreciate that I am not particularly nuanced on this subject, but I don't feel particularly nuanced about it. I think it's an absolute. You either believe in autonomy for women or you don't.

Obviously abuse and rape situations might be slightly different

The minute you bring this argument in, you are blaming the woman for having sex for enjoyment. It's ok to terminate if she didnt have sex for fun??? Yes ok, pp states.5 abortions, are we saying 4 that's your lot have a child you dont want?

I too struggle with the idea of a healthy pregnancy terminated at nearly term, but that's my struggle, and its not up to me to place that on anyone.

I am pro choice and have had two abortions. I certainly agree with abortion on demand up until the stage of viability, ie about 24 weeks.

A woman who gets to that stage, and has chosen to do nothing to terminate the pregnancy , has to be aware that inside her body is a living child. It's no longer a mere collection of cells which she can choose to kill because she doesn't want to be it's mother . She is already it's mother - killing it isn't going to change that . The idea that she would leave it for 39 weeks and then expect a doctor to kill it because that suits her wish to avoid the fact of being it's mother , is not something I can entertain.

great posts from ArnoldWhatshisknickers and lang

discussion of late term abortions as if they happen all the time and without compelling reasons is just bollocks

On every one of those types of thread? Well I don't see that. And I'm all over this place, not just at the moment in time when I sought my own support on the matter. If anything, abortions are suggested on threads where the OP hasn't even mentioned it as an option.
Autonomy for women either exists or it doesn't, I agree. I don't think terms and conditions can be put on it, generally speaking. But human feelings come into the equation, too. Many women do struggle with their choice. Hardly anyone (I would say no one but who knows) actually wants to have an abortion. It's not something people actively seek out for fun. So yes, of course it's an emotive subject. Even to those, or more so, to those who have required abortions.

I’m the first to say as early as possible, as late as necessary but I will admit I’m a bit cautious on late abortions.

Yes, the woman is well within her right and I will fight to the death to support that, but secretly, I don’t like the idea of abortions over 30 weeks unless the mother or baby are seriously ill. I would never say it to her face, and I would support her completely, but I think it’s natural to be a bit wary with late term abortion

I agree op. The most irritating thing is seeing women who call themselves feminists or who act like they’re all about the sisterhood but then think they should have any say on what a woman does with her own body.

My friend growing up found herself pregnant at 14, she hid it from everyone. Luckily her mum found out when she was 23 weeks and they were able to sort out a termination. I can’t imagine if she’d have been turned away how different her life would be today.

As early as possible, as late as necessary. Not your uterus, not your decision. I don’t think there should be a time limit. No one in their right mind, deliberately waits until the last minute for a termination and the rhetoric from anti choicers that they do is tiresome.

I have had an abortion, I no longer regret it or feel shame, although I did at the time.

The minute you bring this argument in, you are blaming the woman for having sex for enjoyment. It's ok to terminate if she didnt have sex for fun???

The point is that it is understandable why it might be more harmful to bring the child into an abusive situation or cause the mother so much difficulty in raising a child created in such a traumatic context.

It isn’t about blaming a woman for having sex for any reason. There is no blame, only responsibility. In most situations it should be possible to prevent a pregnancy before it happens if that’s what she chooses.

discussion of late term abortions as if they happen all the time and without compelling reasons is just bollocks

They don't happen all the time. Statistics prove that. They happen, but rarely in the UK. Their discussion is the inevitable consequence of threads like the OP's arguing for abortion to term in all cases.

Which I still think was the purpose of the op.

I’m also in favour of allowing terminations for any reason at any stage of pregnancy right up to full term. Other posters have articulated my position better than I could have. I’m not remotely squeamish about late term abortions because I simply don’t see it as killing a child, I see it as a woman exercising her right to bodily autonomy.

I don't know what the purpose of the OP was. So far as abortion rights in the UK I think a don't rock the boat approach is best.

So far as abortion rights in Malta, El Salvador, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic I don't think the OP's arguments would do anything other than vindicate anti -abortionists that they are right.

‘I’m pro choice but...’
Is the same as:
‘I’m not racist but...’

*hint - it means you most certainly are not pro choice. It means you’ll let a woman do what she wants with her own body as long as it suits your beliefs, if it goes beyond what you personally feel is ok, she shouldn’t have that choice.

Agree celia.

Plus women stating that they don't feel remotely squeamish about abortion up to the point of birth.

Ammunition for the anti abortion crew.

I'm not sure why you keep ascribing nefarious intentions to me Fraggling, my opinions may seem uncompromising but they are absolutely genuine. If you see them as some kind of bad faith postings that says more about your thoughts than mine.

So we should just shut the fuck up and not discuss things in case it riles the wrong person?

It's that kind of attitude that couches the whole discussion in shame and that gives the idea that it's something wrong.

Did I tell anyone to shut the fuck up?

No I didn't.

Pointing out that women saying they have no qualms whatsoever about abortion until birth is massive ammo for those who would remove our rights is a simple fact.

It's not so much bad faith perhaps but the inability to comprehend that your stance and comments are at best unhelpful to your cause and at worst possibly dangerous.

You strike me as being more interested in virtue signalling the purity of your position than engaging with how that pans out in reality.

It's that kind of attitude that couches the whole discussion in shame and that gives the idea that it's something wrong

You have been using the concept of shame a lot as a bit of a gotcha without much substance.

For many people abortion is wrong. For many people it is the lesser of 2 wrongs. Your dismissal of anything other than your hardline stance really won't help the women who currently have no access to abortion.

Did I tell anyone to shut the fuck up?

No, but you have troll hunted OP. Bad form.

This email appeared in my in-box yesterday. I'm sure arguing for abortion to term for any or no reason is going to really change minds in Argentina.

International Safe Abortion Day, where activists across the world stand together to demand access to safe abortion for all women and girls

Protecting girls from forced pregnancy in Argentina

“We’re talking about girls who are 10, 11, 12 years old. Any sexual relations with young girls counts as rape. When there is a pregnancy, we must remember that girl has been victim of a crime.” - IACHR President, Commissioner Esmeralda Arosemena de Troitiño

Yesterday, on behalf of Equality Now I joined five Argentine women’s and children’s rights organizations in Washington, DC to urge the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights to take action to protect girls from sexual violence and forced pregnancy inArgentina

We testified that Argentina is failing to live up to its obligations under international and regional human rights lawwhen it comes to accessing legal abortion for victims of sexual violence, particularly young girls

Part of the impetus for the hearing was thehigh-profile case of Lucíaan 11-year old girl who became pregnant after being raped and was forced to give birth by Cesarean section this past March after Argentine authorities refused to allow her the abortion to which she was legally entitled, and whichshe requested.Sadly, Lucía’s case is neither unique nor isolated

"This is not a complicated matter at all"

The Commissioners were particularly upset by the fact that so many cases of forced pregnancy following sexual violence involve young girls

“This is not a complicated matter at all. Children are children, and must be allowed to be children, not forced to do adult things like bear children. And no one has the right to decide otherwise.” - Commissioner Margarette May Macaulay

www.equalitynow.org/

I am absolutely pro-choice, and whilst I appreciate medical advances mean premature babies are surviving at an earlier & earlier gestation, I believe the cut off is about right. As has been previously said upthread, there’s a world of difference between a wanted baby sadly born prematurely and a woman wanting access to an abortion. However I’m just not sure I could ever be comfortable with full term abortions, except when medically necessary.

I do question how many doctors would be willing to carry out the procedure? There is a world of difference between asking a doctor to perform fetocide on a 23 week old fetus, and one that is 37+ weeks and essentially a fully developed baby. Would potentially having to travel miles & miles for the procedure not be even more damaging to a obviously very vulnerable woman?

I'm not sure me delicately dancing around a subject will change the fact the world is full of abusive misogynistic dick-heads. I shall leave that approach to others. Surely there's room for all stances? Some people have to be extreme for others to take the middle ground

Where am I seeing it? On every bloody thread that isn't posted in pregnancy choices when women post about horrible situations. Yes, there are mostly supportive posters but there arealwaysposters that tell women 'you never regret a child' or that abortion will traumatise them

You concede there are mostly supportive posters yet take umbrage that on a discussion forum (not an abortion support forum) some posters might have a different opinion.

Who exactly is telling women to "shut the fuck up"?