Abortions

[ILikeyourHairyHands]

I'm not sure MN is the place for women to come for advice about abortions as so many forced-birthers or even 'I could never have an abortion" people/shills come on to every thread where a woman's in a terrible situation and is wavering.

I would advocate abortion in every circumstance a woman will be tied to an abusive man, I really hate the rhetoric that abortions are to be regretted or will cause pain. I think that the idea that abortions are or should be regretful or morally bound is very harmful to women.

Morally I agree with termination up until birth. I know that's an inflammatory position, but I think it's an humane one. And one that would be chosen by few desperate women.

But I think until the point of birth a woman must have volition in law.

I'm not sure me delicately dancing around a subject will change the fact the world is full of abusive misogynistic dick-heads

Rather missing the point. Your approach far from changing their minds will entrench their position. The minds you might change are the ones sitting on the fence- and not in the direction you want.

As I said you seem more keen on pontificating the purity of your position than engaging with reality.

Well Fraggling has repeatedly questioned my motives as my opionions are counter-productive apparently. Which is a tacit stfu.

I think your stance is counterproductive. I think your refusal to even consider that it might be counterproductive, or if it is, you don't care because your own moral purity is more important, shows a very closed mind.

Your comments about anti- abortion posters are well into the "stfu" category.

Yes, there are mostly supportive posters but there arealwaysposters that tell women 'you never regret a child' or that abortion will traumatise them

I've only ever seen those opinions posted on threads where the op has been asking for opinions or saying that their situation isn't right but that they are not sure that they want an abortion.

Would you rather all posters encourage her to go ahead and promise her that she won't regret it?

Surely making someone have an abortion that they don't want is as bad as denying someone an abortion that they do want?

I've seen women saying that they can't afford to have the baby or don't have adequate housing and posters advising where they can get help. If that means that the woman can then keep the baby that she wants isn't that the right thing to do?

I'm not advocating posters trying to dissuade a poster who has already decided or trying to persuade her to stay in an abusive relationship rather than have an abortion btw, but in circumstances where the woman feels like abortion is the only option even if she doesn't want one.

I wouldn’t expect anti-choice activists to change their minds. However, I know my mind was changed by arguments like those here. Some years ago I used to think the current law was about right, but I have been persuaded by those who argue that termination should be available until term, for the reasons expressed earlier.

Agree

However the focus on abortion to term at woman's choice is highly counter productive and supports the anti abortion crew by agreeing with their misogynist views.

It is not legal in any country as far as I'm aware, for choice.
The idea that women will be likely to take this up, aborting just before birth as they've changed their mind, is misogynist. In real life, women get abortions as early s possible, on the whole. The idea that women will, in numbers, be this casual and flakey feeds the anti abortion argument. Part of which is that women are unable to make good decisions, are irresponsible, unreliable, and therefore must have the decision taken out of their hands.

The points where women say they have no qualms about abortion to birth for choice also supports the anti lot. Who believe women are really quite callous and selfish in wanting abortions.

Theoretically at any point and for choice yes. In practice, the idea of aborting a baby at 3 9 weeks is going to be pretty awful to think about for most people. And of course in real life these only tend to happen for serious reasons and are traumatic all round.

Agree with spartacus, that is.

In short. I don't get why the focus on term for choice

When it's still entirely illegal in NI, loads of other countries around the world. And hard won rights are being rolled back elsewhere.

As others have pointed out, the actual law in the uk is not about choice, even though that's what happens in practice. So here it would be easy to roll back our position, just tell doctors there is a different, higher standard of what constitutes mental or physical harm, and they must abide by it. Job done. We should not be so nonchalant, probably.

I've posted it before, but surely choosing to proceed with a pregnancy, birthing and raising a child is the big fuck off decision, not terminating and returning to the status quo.

But what if a woman wants the baby but feels forced into an abortion because of circumstances? How easy is it for her to return to the status quo after a termination that she didn't really want?

I find the attitude that no woman should regret a termination or feel upset or sad about having one as dangerous as those who think abortion should be banned.

Surely your stance is just as dismissive to women who happen to feel differently to you?

My view is if you you want one you should have one and if you don't, don't. But either way no one should have the right to tell you what tondo, and that includes telling women who don't one that they should have it or telling them that if they do then they are wrong for the way they feel about it.

'I find the attitude that no woman should regret a termination or feel upset or sad about having one'

I've never seen this on mn.

And where have you seen women who are happily pregnant being told they must have an abortion???

Just the way I'm reading what the op is saying and also what Spartacus said

The discourse around abortion needs more thought too, it's still, even by many of the pro-choice-iest of pro-choicers often presented as a big hard decision to have an abortion. I've posted it before, but surely choosing to proceed with a pregnancy, birthing and raising a child is the big fuck off decision, not terminating and returning to the status quo.

It just reads, to me, as though she's saying that having an abortion should be the easier decision to make. Maybe for some, even many, women it will be but for many others it will be a more difficult one because of conflicting feelings. Not every decision has a clear right answer.

Completely disagree with you op
No one has the right to end another persons life.
Babies are the most vulnerable in our society
No we should not be able to terminate for any reason at full term

And where have you seen women who are happily pregnant being told they must have an abortion???

I haven't and where have I said that I have?

What I have seen are women posting to say that they are pregnant but don't know what to do.

Just this week there have been threads about a woman pregnant with a 3rd child who is being financially supported by her parents who want her to have an abortion. She didn't want to have one but admitted that she couldn't provide for this baby not her other 2 without help.from her parents - majority of posters were persuading her to have an abortion despite her not wanting one.

There have been many others from women who have listed several reasons why having a baby isn't practical and the only reason for not having an abortion is just that they want the baby and countless posters will tell them that they are selfish if they continue with the pregnancy.

I think it's as wrong to persuade someone to have an abortion as it is to guilt someone into not having one with the "no one ever regrets a baby once it's born" attitude.

What people should be advised is to seek out independent counseling so that they make the right decision for them, whatever that may be.

It's a foetus, it's not a baby until it's born and independent of its mother, until then it is part of the mother's body and her rights and needs are paramount.

Foetus or baby depend very much on how you are viewing the pregnancy.

And yes, the woman's rights and needs are paramount - including not being guilted into having an abortion if she doesn't want one.

"counterproductive"

Why should a woman's right to control her own body every second of her life be required to be 'productive' to someone's political argument?

I ask again, and people always ignore it, but what should the punishment be, that would be given to women who dare to control their own bodies from birth to death, without apology or permission?

How would you punish a woman, when is she no longer able to make health decisions that are exclusively in her own best interests, at what point does her body cease to be her own, who owns it when she doesn't, and when does she get to reclaim it.

I ask again, and people always ignore it, but what should the punishment be, that would be given to women who dare to control their own bodies from birth to death, without apology or permission?

What do you mean punishment?

And none of us, male or female, get to control our own bodies. I wish that were the case tbh and think that euthanasia should be legalised.

I also.dont agree that the medical profession should get the final say over treatments or procedures that we may want but that's how it is, so none of us have total control.over our bodies, even as adults. Not sure how the "from birth" could work either.

'Why should a woman's right to control her own body every second of her life be required to be 'productive' to someone's political argument?'

Because it's our political argument, being played out all over the world in a variety of ways, and we need to win.

So eg we can agitate for NI abortion laws to be relaxed. To allow to 12 weeks. To be same as rest of UK. Something that might gain traction.

Or we can agitate for abortion to term for choice in uk including NI and get nowhere.

This is not just a theoretical conversation it is a real life imperative all over the world, and trying to get abortion laws adhered to / changed is of course political.

How would you punish a woman, when is she no longer able to make health decisions that are exclusively in her own best interests, at what point does her body cease to be her own, who owns it when she doesn't, and when does she get to reclaim it.

A pp made a comment upthread about enforced abortion for 'certain' women (I think they used an addict as an example).
It sent a chill down my spine that any woman should be FORCED into either abortion or giving birth (I'm pro choice by the way).

I really don't think punishment should come into it but I do think when it comes to late term abortions it is important to have medical monitoring (as opposed to gatekeeping) as it seems to me important to know why these rare situations arise so society can develop better testing, education, whatever and ensure as few women as possible find themselves going through such traumatic events.

With earlier, I mentioned up to 18 weeks but am flexible on that, abortions it really isn't society's business. I want an abortion is good enough.

"counterproductive"

Why should a woman's right to control her own body every second of her life be required to be 'productive' to someone's political argument?

If that is taking up my reference to "counterproductive" that is not the the point I am making.

What is counterproductive is the OP's stance, tenor and arguments which may well be counterproductive in the fight for abortion rights. It is not a stance which will change the minds of those who oppose abortion but could sway those on the fence to being anti-abortion.

I do wonder just how much of the current backlash in certain US states has been prompted by the New York bill.

The minute you bring this argument in, you are blaming the woman for having sex for enjoyment. It's ok to terminate if she didnt have sex for fun???

The point is that it is understandable why it might be more harmful to bring the child into an abusive situation or cause the mother so much difficulty in raising a child created in such a traumatic context.

It isn’t about blaming a woman for having sex for any reason. There is no blame, only responsibility. In most situations it should be possible to prevent a pregnancy before it happens if that’s what she chooses.

By saying it's ok if a woman has been raped etc (or sex against her will) to have a termination, but its not ok if she wants one? Most people I would imagine wouldn't choose to have a late term termination for fun, and they have their own reasons.

@Yeahnahyeah I agree with you!