Abortions

[ILikeyourHairyHands]

I'm not sure MN is the place for women to come for advice about abortions as so many forced-birthers or even 'I could never have an abortion" people/shills come on to every thread where a woman's in a terrible situation and is wavering.

I would advocate abortion in every circumstance a woman will be tied to an abusive man, I really hate the rhetoric that abortions are to be regretted or will cause pain. I think that the idea that abortions are or should be regretful or morally bound is very harmful to women.

Morally I agree with termination up until birth. I know that's an inflammatory position, but I think it's an humane one. And one that would be chosen by few desperate women.

But I think until the point of birth a woman must have volition in law.

"I don't think Mumsnet is the place to discuss abortions, but here I am starting a thread on abortion and if you don't agree with my view you then SHUT UP!"

Subtle, OP, real subtle...🙄

Well thanks wimmin, your towering intellects and deep compassion has just peak-pro-choiced me

The extreme views of the OP and the way she expresses them will do absolutely nothing to change the minds of anyone opposed to abortion or anyone seeking to change the UK"s (excluding NI) liberal position. The 2 doctor rule is rubber stamping and the UK cut off period is far later than just about any other country.

The OP has not changed my mind that I support the UK (excluding the NI) position but , yes, I agree with the comment above- the OP is not doing women any favours.

And who ever used that silly, fake analogy about being shackled to a violin player- it's nonsensical. It's a fake, made up scenario which has never happened and will never happen. It really isn't the "gotcha" some of you think it is.

There isn't scope for changing minds or compromise here. It's one set of belief about rights against another. No universal squeamishness, no universal belief that unborn children take precedence over women. But you want to be careful with that old chestnut that because late abortion is very traumatic for the mother, she shouldn't be allowed an informed choice... That's the cr* used by pro-lifers to say ALL abortion is so bad for women that it should not exist. I guess because we don't live in the deep South, our laws consider late abortion isn't 'murder' and it seems to be very rarely used not by those harshly judged feckless or selfish, but the unaware young, the raped, and those where lives will be very short or primarily suffering. Not seeing much compassion for women in those terrible positions, but I imagine we will just go round and round shouting at each other, so polarized and emotive this is. I guess Hairy* knew this would go this way when you posted...

'And Toorah the current set-up you're 'good with' DOES allow 'choosing to kill a healthy baby in late pregnancy'.

The real problem in the UK is that westilldon't have abortion on demand. That is the travesty. In my view abortion on demand should be available up to 18 weeks with no limit for medically necessary abortions

The reality is abortion is available on demand for up to 24 weeks in the UK. The 2 doctor rule should go and consulting a doctor only should stay.

In the last year there were 205,295 abortions in England and Wales and 12,212 in Scotland. In the same period there were 679,106 live births inEnglandand Wales and 52,861 in Scotland. Those figures really don't suggest that abortion is difficult to come by in UK (excluding NI).

Why do these discussions always wander into emotive hypotheticals about vanishingly rare situations?

Yes. I did try to get this across on page one to head off these fever dream scenarios! The lack of trust in other women seems very anti-feminist to me.

There are fewer than 4,000 terminations carried out at 18 weeks or over each year in the UK. Almost all of them are for foetal abnormality. A few are for risk to mother (cancer diagnoses during pregnancy and suchlike). A tiny number are for young teens who had concealed pregnancy. That sort of thing.

There is no need to reduce term limits. Women make good decisions about late terminations already! They basically only take place in the exigent circumstances that exceptions are proposed for anyway. If the term limit was abolished altogether, they'd still make good decisions. There would be no flood of casual foeticides FFS.

I agree OP. This is not a good place for that kind of support.

Calmly put Lang, thanks.

My adopted son was born to a young mum who wanted an abortion but was advised to continue the pregnancy by a religious family member who helped her conceal the pregnancy until late on (24 weeks) thought they thought it was less than that. She went through a pregnancy she didn't want to be having and by the point of birth, she was a shell of a person.

She is a family member of my husband. Not very, very close but close enough for him to have known her all her life and to have grown up with her mother. Her mother was oblivious to the pregnancy until 24 weeks but it would have been hard for her to be approved to adopt the baby for reasons plus her daughter wasn't in a place where she could give up her mother for her baby. She didn't want to see the baby every day or even often. She hasn't seen him at all in these 3 years though she will look at the occasional family photo.

It's pulled his family apart in that her closest relatives find it hard to see our son with us in another family setting so we carefully manage family events so that her closest relatives rarely see him. My husband has a huge family so there are other people who are closer to him and her closest relatives opt out of attending those events. The process of realising that few members of his family could take the child at short notice given the SS involvement and what they'd need from prospective parents was upsetting, embarrassing and intrusive for all.

This whole situation was awful for everyone
The only person who got anything good out of it was us who gained a son and my son who gained parents. It has split the family though. Even though nobody is angry with anyone else, it is just hurtful for my son's biological grandmother that her relative is in fact his grandmother now. His biological mother has never been the same and has much input from mental health services.

I see no shame in abortion. I see no harm in abortion. I see abortion as a good for women.

I agree if the woman wants one. Lots of the posts I see on here from women undecided about having an abortion seem to be because the woman wants to have the baby but is worried that she can't afford it, that her living situation isn't right, that the dad doesn't want it, that her family don't want her to have it...

In those cases surely abortion isn't necessarily right nor harmless for the woman concerned? She wouldn't be having it because she wanted it but because she felt forced into having it.

Isn't that as bad as being forced not to have an abortion that she wanted?

I believe in choice - the choice to have an abortion if that's what the woman wants or the choice to have the baby if that's what she wants.

I've had two abortions, one early one late. Both post dc.

I think the negative effect it may have on some people outweighs the negative effect of having unwanted babies or being shackled to abusive men.

Adoption is a shit option. Lots of adoptions go horribly wrong and these children end up with shit lives in and out of foster and childrens homes. We already have enough unwanted children in this world. I think it's a selfish decision to use morals as a way to keep women pregnant and have more unwanted children.

Abortions up until full gestation? Disgusting.

Cool username OP.

Disgusting? I don't think so. I think of the shitty state care looked after children can recieve and think that's disgusting.

Children with numerous ACEs rejection and abandoned issues who go onto perpetuate the cycle. Having a baby you don't want and want to adopt is disgusting to that actual born living baby. Why would you do that to an actual person?

I believe that abortion should be available on demand and free until 12 weeks,

I found out very early on I was pregnant (5 weeks say) and did not get my NHS abortion til pushing 12 weeks. So a wait of 6 weeks. I was 17 and skint, so couldn't afford a private abortion.
I had to go about my business for 6 weeks, go to college, conceal my morning sickness from my parents. It felt like an eternity.

If somebody hadn't found out til say 8 weeks, they'd be way over that 12 if they'd had to wait as long as me.

*I believe that abortion should be available on demand and free until 12 weeks, this allows for the oops situations that many of us have found ourselves.

Late abortion for social reasons is wrong and very traumatic for the mother.*

Not true, you can’t speak for all women. Age 17 I had an abortion at 16/40. I didn’t find out I was pregnant till around 8/40, spent 5 weeks housebound with hyperemesis, admitted to hospital with a central line in my neck for 2 weeks because I was so sick and dehydrated and then finalllllly managed to get the procedure done at 16 weeks.

From the moment I found out I was pregnant I knew I would terminate, I was 17, my life hadn’t even started, no part of me wanted to grow up or become a mother. I wanted children when I was older, when I could provide for them and give them a nice life, I didn’t want a life of drudgery and struggling. A baby wouldn’t have made it all worth it, because I simply did not want one, it was no prize.

I was not traumatised by having an abortion for “social reasons”. It was the only thing in the world I wanted. I was properly traumatised by becoming so horrifically unwell though.

@Lovethetimeyouhave Nobody is god, god isn’t real. He’s no more in charge of life or death than any of us are.

If somebody hadn't found out til say 8 weeks, they'd be way over that 12 if they'd had to wait as long as me

The reality of the change in the law to abortion on demand in the Republic of Ireland up to 12 weeks is that women are still travelling to England.

Britain (excluding NI) is currently only one of three countries in Europe that offers abortions after 14 weeks on request. Sweden goes to 18 weeks and The Netherlands to 22 weeks – but the latter has only two medical clinics which would potentially carry out the procedure on non-residents. That makes Britain one of the most important countries for women in Europe in need of a later abortion.

Why is this even a thread?! Why are we discussing such an inflammatory subject if each woman is free to make her own choices? Seems like an odd topic if you're not after advice.

People generally fail to distinguish properly between
'I don't like that at all and wouldn't do it myself, and wish it would never happen'
and
'I advocate the following legal punishment to be enacted upon a grown woman of full capacity for having absolute autonomy over her own body'

It isn't enough to think 'I'm against this'
You have to be prepared to to state to a woman "you can do what you like with your own body, just as any human can, except under these circumstances, where the state has been authorised, legally, to criminalise you for controlling your own body. Your body is under state control and restriction for this period of time, and you will continue to be owned by the state, not yourself, for that time period. That's the price of being a female, not a male human"

If you want to criminalise women for what they choose, with full capacity, to do with their own bodies at ANY point in their lives, you have tacitly accepted that we aren't free. We are literally slaves for periods of our lives, and our bodies are not our own. And for those periods, we will be punished for exercising the same bodily freedoms that other humans are entitled to enjoy.

This is how I arrived at my position. I can't countenance that removal of bodily autonomy, that temporary enslaving of women to a higher power. My body is mine, to revere or to destroy and everything in between. And I see that as the highest principle of human freedom.

Within my skin. Mine.

A Miscarrying Woman Nearly Died After a Catholic Hospital Sent Her Home Three Times - Rewire.News

I live in WA it is rough here with all the Catholic hospitals if you are a woman. I am always afraid to go to one even for non reproductive care. I had a hysterectomy, but the fear still lingers. Women shouldn't be afraid to go to the hospital.

rewire.news/article/2019/09/25/miscarriage-catholic-hospital/

Women in the UK where our abortion laws are fairly liberal and we have the NHS with mandated standards of care wherever you are (except Northern Ireland) have no idea how the abortion debate impacts on basic gynaecological care in countries like the USA.
Women are put at severe risk by not getting the treatment they need for miscarriage due to locally imposed rules covering abortion even though it really isn't an abortion but life saving treatment.

Also well said LangCleng

Canada has the best abortion laws. You can get it at any time and don't have to state a good reason like they pretend you have to do here

Why are we discussing such an inflammatory subject if each woman is free to make her own choices?

1. women aren't free to choose an abortion in the UK. They operate under a patriarchal system that requires two doctors to make a judgement about her mental health for the most part.

2. OP wants to discuss removing term limits - women in the UK aren't free to have terminations after a term limit

3. it's a feminist board where discussions of even controversial and emotive issues affecting women take place

HTH