Hey FWR - "We need both sides to live with some compromise "

[pombear]

Warning: This thread will spontaneously combust after 10 posts!

As part of this 'complex subject' a poster started a thread to highlight that a trans activist appeared to have posted a twitter gif that implied they were 'dancing on the grave' of a prominent feminist who sadly died today.

The thread was deleted with this message:

Message from MNHQ: We're sorry to hear some users are not happy with our modding of trans discussions, and our updated Talk Guidelines.
This is a complex subject which is very hard to moderate, and since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward.
We realise that this will likely be frustrating to many, but we are convinced that our goal must be to support civil and constructive debate.

Civil and constructive debate?

Women point out destructive and uncivil debate from a trans rights activist,

Women also point out the biological sex of this activist.

Women are deleted and schooled in how they must refer to this destructive and uncivil 'debater.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Women - shut up, compromise, live with the 'contradiction' (in this case, does it mean you must only talk about the person who is shitting all over women's spaces and rights if we use the right pronoun?)

Absolutely disgusted and disappointed in @MNHQ for deleting the thread.

If there was ever a better example of why women don't want men in their single sex spaces it is to see one of those people demanding entry sharing glee at the death of a brave young women who stood up for our rights.

MNHQ need to do the right thing and reinstate the thread or they may as well get rid of the whole feminism chat forum as it's clear us pesky women must still have our thoughts and words censored.

Difficult to add to the eloquence and dignity shown here but I'd like to say that this has made me very angry too.
Please keep going, brilliant women of FWR. You're something that he could never be, in more ways than one.

@CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost yup. Women will be silenced - yet again. Colour me not surprised.

Just want to add my voice to this, MNHQ. I don't even know what to say tbh. Everything pp have said, I guess. This is fucking shocking.

This is absolutely ridiculous. We have refused to pander to the delusions of a man, who has celebrated the death of a woman. Yet it is us women who are in the wrong, and must be scolded, censored and deleted?!!

I'm not a bloody child MNHQ. I will not compromise on this issue. I will not compromise while a nasty, narcissist openly celebrates the death of a brave young or tells women to 'die in a grease fire', nor will I compromise while he denies women their rightful place on a podium.

You are in danger of suppressing voices and suppressing the truth for the sake of being 'nice'.

One word. No.

Last night I tried to post on the thread in question, but I think the angry responses must have been coming so fast that it never posted.

The only adequate response here would be for Mumsnet to admit they made an error in their moderation. This was a thread about a despicable man celebrating the death of a young woman. Given his specific comments, only a few days before Magdalen’s death, there can be no doubt his act was deliberate.

He knew we would react. That was his plan Mumsnet.

He will be watching. He wants to see you dance to his tune. He will be celebrating the fact that you are forcing us to capitulate.

He is using your staff as his enablers.

Please do not let him do that to women. If he sues, I think you know we will have your back. The speed with which crowdfunders for important cases for women’s rights grow is testament to that.

Please Mumsnet, help us stand up to bullies. Do not force us to bow to them.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction

What compromise?
REINSTATE THE THRED.
I always come here to read threads but what’s the point if you’re censoring just like Twitter now.

I always try to see both sides of the moderation debate, MNHQ, and I hope I’ve been here long enough now that you remember me as being a moderate voice on this issue, in that I understand as a former mod on a similar board how much pressure is likely being put on you by trans activists and allies on this topic.

There is no amount of “nice” that users here can be that will get supporters of McKinnon off your back. The all consuming hatred of women is too fundamental to them- they shall not suffer a witch to live. It’s not what we say, it’s that we say anything at all.

So when racists say vile things about black people - post a picture of someone dancing on Martin Luther king’s grave, day - do they have to compromise and live with contradiction too? Or do they get to speak the truth which is that the perpetrator is a revolting piece of barely human dog shit?

Oh. Also, no one wants to “move forward” with McKinnon, any more than they would want to move forward with that stubborn turd at the bottom of the bog that simply won’t flush.
What a moronic statement.

*He knew we would react. That was his plan Mumsnet.

He will be watching. He wants to see you dance to his tune. He will be celebrating the fact that you are forcing us to capitulate.

He is using your staff as his enablers.*

This. He can now crow on Twitter that Mumsnet is on his side. He is a cheating misogynistic fucker and you @mnhq need to grow some fucking balls.

Seeing as you think humans can change sex, this shouldn't be too hard for you.

McKinnon is a man and also a nasty arsehole. I couldn’t give a toss if I get banned for speaking the truth.

Is this the compromise we have to accept?

That when women die instead of respect for the family there are celebrations?

That’s not a compromise. I don’t have the words for whatever it is, but it isn’t compromise.

@MNHQ do we have to call rapists 'she' if they say so?

Not suggesting that RM is a rapist, of course, just wondering where the line is drawn? Because it's clearly not drawn at publicly celebrating the death of a young woman from cancer

Compromise from women’s side:

Don’t say what you see
Force yourself to lie
Twist your brain around to fit the words you’re allowed to use
Try to understand the pain that the other person is in
Accommodate male feelings over your own
Remain “in the spirit” in the face of any level of hateful misogyny
Don’t react to obvious goading, trolling and provocation
Be kind be kind be kind

Compromise from trans activists side:
Don’t call women TERFs or Cis
?

Seems a little skewed. I’m all for going high, I really am, but...

SophoclesTheFox

I understand as a former mod on a similar board how much pressure is likely being put on you by trans activists and allies on this topic

Sophocles can you expand on this? I know HQ will get massive amounts of comms, but what constitutes the pressure?

Surely you need leverage to apply pressure. What is stopping HQ from just saying no.

No, we disagree. No, we aren't entering into a never ending exchange of emails. No, it's not illegal.

"HQ start work at 9, so expect this to be gone by 9:40, lots of us will be suspended / deleted too."

Well, as Magdalen said, I'd rather be rude than be a liar (or a coward). That goes for being deleted/banned too.

As well as avalanches of unhinged communications, we’d face semi-regular (quasi) legal threats, datun. Solicitors cease and desist letters, mostly. Then there were DDOS attacks, threats, doxxings, trolling etc. We weren’t a commercial enterprise so it was quite hard to deal with, and on a personal level, it’s really wearing. I multiply it up to try to imagine what MNHQ get on a daily basis, and as fellow humans, I empathise. That said, they are a commercial business and so should have the systems. And processes in place to deal with it.

I agree that MNHQ could just drop the rope and say no, and the sky would not fall in, by the way.

I am all for civil debate, MNHQ, but can you please explain how Mackinnon's post about Magdalen even approach representing compromise and civility enough for responding by rolling over to be anything other than cowardice and masochism?

Civility works both ways. Compromise works both ways. Right now you are the schoolteacher telling the bullied girls to play nicely while the boy who smashed them in the face stands and smirks.

Doesn't the give them an inch and they'll take a mile maxim apply though? These are people who see compromise as a sign of weakness. All trying to be "nice" is going to do is teach them that if they don't initially get what they want they just need to push harder. Which does indeed seem to be what's happened.

He can now crow on Twitter that Mumsnet is on his side.

Or if they realise they miscalled, then the crowing will be 'see, they're transphobic'.
Post something vile and then win either way? I'm not seeing the 'compromise' in that.

Can we be clear? This isn't about 'transphobia'. I'm 100% sure the vast majority of trans people wouldn't dream of posting a dancing on the grave gif when an adversary died so young. This is about the actions of one person (who has posted 'die in a grease fire' memes ... so not out of character).

The part of the moderation guidelines which is apt are, imo,
^ Am I allowed to criticise someone for their actions or express a negative view on them even if they happen to be trans?
Of course, yes.^

As to the 'misgendering' - context is all, the context of this is a vile, completely disrespectful action causing an outraged reaction - I can't believe anyone on the MN team wouldn't be able to understand that outrage and how it is of a completely different order of magnitude to that claimed to be caused by a fucking pronoun.

McKinnon is a vile piece of shit, who has not one ounce of 'womanly feelings'. That twitter thread is absolutely disgusting. Why are you pandering to McKinnon Mumsnet? Surely McKinnon doesnt add anything to your visitor boards and revenue at all? Fucks sake, support women.

Surely now is the time to realise that pandering to men, men who happily dance on the graves of women, isn't working?

You tried it but you are just forcing women to lie. Which is coercive as we have said time and again.

Now is the time to draw a line and show which side you stand on.