Hey FWR - "We need both sides to live with some compromise "

[pombear]

Warning: This thread will spontaneously combust after 10 posts!

As part of this 'complex subject' a poster started a thread to highlight that a trans activist appeared to have posted a twitter gif that implied they were 'dancing on the grave' of a prominent feminist who sadly died today.

The thread was deleted with this message:

Message from MNHQ: We're sorry to hear some users are not happy with our modding of trans discussions, and our updated Talk Guidelines.
This is a complex subject which is very hard to moderate, and since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward.
We realise that this will likely be frustrating to many, but we are convinced that our goal must be to support civil and constructive debate.

Civil and constructive debate?

Women point out destructive and uncivil debate from a trans rights activist,

Women also point out the biological sex of this activist.

Women are deleted and schooled in how they must refer to this destructive and uncivil 'debater.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Women - shut up, compromise, live with the 'contradiction' (in this case, does it mean you must only talk about the person who is shitting all over women's spaces and rights if we use the right pronoun?)

Agreed, but this is a known MNHQ problem, we have been raising this loads of times and it appears no action was taken. And there is no knowing if the insistence of women sticking up together did not contribute in a substantial way to the decision being reversed. As a business, if you know you have a problem to cover a predominantly night time problem, then you need to address that. Whilst I am pleased that the thread is reinstated, I am underwhelmed that it is women again - as often that need to put the legwork in.

Maybe I am naive but that feels like a watershed moment. I think they just picked a side. They just need to keep being brave.
It's nonsensical of course all of it, every discussion we and the wider world has about transwomen in sport is about the fact that they are men. We are not concerned about the unfairness in sport because they are unicorns, it is because they are men. The misgendering rule is ridiculous, probably we should have fought it from the start. Men don't become women because they are nice, or look pretty, or don't commit crimes. If Rachel McKinnon is a man then so is Blaire White. When we capitulate for some we make the situation worse. And because we don't know what women are linked to these men we are potentially standing on the fingers of transwidows who may just be hanging on.
By 'being kind', we are causing pain for women, the likes of whom, MN was originally established for. We are saying no. I for one will not be complicit in causing more pain to those women.

Scanned through this thread and seen a couple of comments saying "we're speaking up for women".

Please, people on this board, please don't claim to speak for all women. You don't. You speak for the subset of women who hold your opinion. There are many of us who don't share your views. There are often highly offensive comments on these boards, hard line and just as bad as the worst of trans rights activists. Saying you'll dance on someone's grave is vile. The inhumanity with which some on this board speak about trans people is also vile. It's not a race to the bottom. Compromise IS needed.

Have informed debates, but be decent. And don't say you speak for me. You speak for you.

There are often highly offensive comments on these boards, hard line and just as bad as the worst of trans rights activists

Quote? Because no one here says people should die. No one on here threatens violence. You've missed the point entirely.

Our information tells us that we have been correct in refusing to name men as women. The line has been drawn and yes it is hard. What is so offensive about speaking the truth?

"You don't speak for me". Yeah fucking right. If it were your daughter, sister, mum or friend who had died, and some man across the pond was celebrating because she had dared during her lifetime to say he was still biologically male underneath his outfits, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be holding back either.

@underthebridgedowntown

Speaking up for women and speaking for women are not the same thing.

It is not offensive, nor violent, nor hateful to state fact. No one can change sex. To say that is untrue is to remove the right of biological women to access sex segregated spaces, thereby putting some at risk.

I honestly do not know how things have gotten to this stage.

Honesty is not indecent. Attempting to shame women into silence is, though.

There are often highly offensive comments on these boards, hard line and just as bad as the worst of trans rights activists.

Receipts please.

I’ve never seen anyone here threaten a trans person, wish harm on them, or celebrate their death.

Please don’t act like there is equivalence happening here, because it’s really disingenuous.

The worst thing a woman can do is be rude about a man 🙄

Meh
We speak up for all women, even the ones who have bought into the delusions

There are often highly offensive comments on these boards, hard line and just as bad as the worst of trans rights activists.

Absolute nonsense.

And how have you managed to reach adulthood and think that appalled outrage to a man dancing on a woman's grave is not a rational response?

What is wrong with people? How have they got to the stage where they are incapable of recognising immorality and judging it accordingly?

underthebridge

Fair enough. We don’t speak for you in our condemnation of men who wish death on women and celebrate their passing with dancing gifs.

You sound absolutely lovely, but each to their own.

Fitting username btw

Immorality in a man is when he does bad things (maybe, sometimes, a considerable amount of leeway may be given as long as he only hurts women and children). Immorality in a woman is when she does, says, or even thinks anything that a man doesn't like.

underthebridge , your post comes across as overly dramatic; pleading that women just be nice and everything will be alright. Hope you’ve got some smelling salts to hand before you pass out with the ‘unlaydeee’ like behaviour here.
Perish the thought women should point out a man behaving like a misogynistic arse .

whatwould spot on, 👍🏽

@underthebridgedowntown quotes please.

You might find someone being called a wanker or a cunt, but what is that in the face of men who call for us to die in grease fires, and literally celebrate our deaths?

TRAs - I hope you all dieeeeee!!!!!

Gendercrit women - Yeah, so, that statement? A lot of male socialization going on there, not really feeling comfortable about sharing spaces with someone who thinks like that.

See? Just as bad, as long as your starting point is that the bar for what counts as really really bad when coming from a woman is basically "didn't put other people's needs first and expressed opinions in a way that's unbecoming of a lady, who should know her place".

You claim there are “many of you”, underthebridgedowntown. I hope you’re wrong. I certainly think you are.
You’re absolutely a minority on this thread, so please knock off any high handed attempts to police it.

The inhumanity with which some on this board speak about trans people is also vile.

Inhumanity?

Come on now, nobody wishes harm to any trans person. We are just not going to lie to them.

That is not inhumane.

TRAs “uncivil” language - death threats, rape threats, threats of violence (and actual violence), gloating about women losing their jobs, being silenced and fuckingDYING.

Women’s “uncivil” language - stating facts, refusing to use preferred pronouns for rapists and paedophiles.

But “both sides” are as bad as each other and need to compromise.

Fuck right off.

Again, not compromising with people who'd want to dance on my grave. That's not "vile", it's having a basic sense of self preservation.

Come on now, nobody wishes harm to any trans person. We are just not going to lie to them.

That is not inhumane.

No, it is very far from inhumane. In fact my experience, in a very different context, is that the single most inhumane thing to do when dealing with delusion is pander to it. You aren't helping, you aren't healing, you are perpetuating and increasing the harm by colluding.