Hey FWR - "We need both sides to live with some compromise "

[pombear]

Warning: This thread will spontaneously combust after 10 posts!

As part of this 'complex subject' a poster started a thread to highlight that a trans activist appeared to have posted a twitter gif that implied they were 'dancing on the grave' of a prominent feminist who sadly died today.

The thread was deleted with this message:

Message from MNHQ: We're sorry to hear some users are not happy with our modding of trans discussions, and our updated Talk Guidelines.
This is a complex subject which is very hard to moderate, and since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward.
We realise that this will likely be frustrating to many, but we are convinced that our goal must be to support civil and constructive debate.

Civil and constructive debate?

Women point out destructive and uncivil debate from a trans rights activist,

Women also point out the biological sex of this activist.

Women are deleted and schooled in how they must refer to this destructive and uncivil 'debater.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Women - shut up, compromise, live with the 'contradiction' (in this case, does it mean you must only talk about the person who is shitting all over women's spaces and rights if we use the right pronoun?)

Mr Tumble is a man.

If I were to do that I'd feel like I was going "yes, darling, you are most definitely a fairy" to a 5 year old who was waving a homemade wand at me. I generally try to avoid speaking to adults that way (or even children, for the most part).

Oh and kittens so good to see you back!

@OhHolyJesus Just a heads up from personal experience, don't assume its safe to share personal details over DM.

I'd like to point out how coerced use of pronouns potentially excludes and silences trans widows @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet as it means that the words to describe our experience are taken away from us.

RM's trans widow would be unable to post here because of this, I should think.

Most of us have had our ex's attempt to coerce us regarding name and pronoun use, so it is depressing when the same dynamic is duplicated here.

Rachel McKinnon is a disgraceful wanker of a man.
Magdalen told us to stop hiding and take action not pander to the misogynist fantasies of men who want to believe TWAW. They are not.
Mumsnet please honour her memory by no longer forcing us to tell lies about pronouns and other idiocies. Enough already. Please!

That question from Tinsel is one which is being repeatedly ask, so needs a specific FAQ I think.
And if the answer doesn't work for tinsel (fgs ask an expert, I don't suppose any of the MN staff have walked in her shoes) then that'll be my hill, I think.

I don't get it either. Why is sexing bad but correctly gendering a matter of utmost importance, to the point where if you don't, people will celebrate your death?

The only difference is feelings. Feelings of men who have found a new and especially wily way of subjugating, silencing and threatening.

Where did we all submit to this notion, that gender trumps sex. Entire societies have subscribed to it, based on nothing, nothing at all.

On my twitter feed I see Scottish women politicians commemorating Magdalen

I guess I don’t follow English women politicians but hav3 they commented at all ?

Which politicians do you see commemorating Madgalen? That's promising.

twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1172763791232241664

Ruth Maguire MSP

A courageous young feminist, who inspired others died today. All day I’ve written & deleted, thought about caveats, nearly RT’ed but not ...that’s really not good enough.

Let me simply say, I pledge I will #BeBrave and truthful in standing up for the rights of women & girls.

That question from Tinsel is one which is being repeatedly ask, so needs a specific FAQ I think. And if the answer doesn't work for tinsel (fgs ask an expert, I don't suppose any of the MN staff have walked in her shoes) then that'll be my hill, I think.

Concur.

Address (or dismiss, sigh) the needs and interests of the trans widows please MNHQ.

twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1172764503295049730

twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1172804547313635330

@MNHQ I'm so pleased to see that you are going to review your position about how you moderate these boards next week.

I recognise that it can be difficult, but surely you must see now that "misgendering" is not hate speech, but is a way of trying to control women who are trying to preserve safety and privacy for all women (XX) and children?

It really is time that this rule was changed. No-one should be forced to deny reality. I am so glad these boards exist, but you must stand up to the TRA bullies who report non-hateful free speech.

twitter.com/elainesmithmsp/status/1172619308163305473

In the UK, the Gender Recognition Act (2004) created a legal fiction that male people who possess a UK Gender Recognition Certificate should be treated in most circumstances in law as if they are female.

Which laws do MumsnetHQ believe apply to users of UK websites, such as Mumsnet, that compel the users to refer to any male person as female if that male person lives outside the UK and also does not possess a UK Gender Recognition Certificate?

SNP and Labour. Compliance will no doubt be after Elaine. I wonder if the SNP is starting to realize that self ID is, as one blogger put it, the law nobody wants.

Also retweeted by Jenny Marra MSP and an ever growing list of Scottish women.

On my twitter feed I see Scottish women politicians commemorating Magdalen

Good, telling the truth, which should not be considered brave at all, would be a fitting tribute to Magdelen.

Letter writing is working, continue by asking your local politicians to speak up today. If you are on twitter then retweet and ask your MP/MSP/whatever to show support. Get politicians viewing Magdalen's videos.

I’m really pleased to see some MSPs speaking out on this and sharing some of Magdalen’s amazing work

So it took 11 pages of complaints, exasperation, anger, sadness, disbelief for MNHQ to reinstate a thread that should never have been pulled. FFS, pull your big girls pants on, MNHQ and let us have the debates you promise, stop prioritising menz feelz over women's dignity and reality, stop the coercive control and pandering, start to centre women and girls on the FWR board, after all it is there for us not for validating some bloke's perceived identity.

So it took 11 pages of complaints...

Tbf, I think it took the time necessary for the day shift to show up.
MN does have a persistent issue with out of hours modding - not just FWR, eg someone recently got a thread deleted for posting a perfectly normal parenting question.

I don't know what the solution is. Maybe it's hard to get staff - but surely modding isn't something that has to be done from the office, or from U.K. time zone. Maybe MN needs to recruit some experienced parents - empty nesters perhaps? (NB - I'm not angling for a job, I have a good one already working part time from home in a different time zone to most of my colleagues)