Toilets - what do we want?

[Mxyzptlk]

We don't want men in women's toilets, okay.
Do we want single sex toilets as they've been until now? Can those be maintained against the trans onslaught?
What about the trans rights we say we care about? How can they be upheld without affecting women's right to safe toilets?

What do you think would be the ideal situation, fair to everyone?

If I encountered Patrick Hagan in a women's restroom I categorically wouldn't challenge him. I'd get on with what I needed to do and get on with my day.

Because by appearances he would scare the shit out of me and I would be very frightened of what he might do if I were to challenge him.

I would absolutely know he wasn't a woman.

Sorry 2b I've literally just said what you did

Great minds think alike

The bathroom set ups tend to be a little different where I live compared to the UK, mainly because there are not so many older buildings I think. Also, about 20 years ago there was a change to the way toilets were managed in public buildings and new ones were built according to new standards. Since the majority even in older buildings have been renovated to similar standards, sometimes they don't quite make it due to physical issues with construction but they try and meet the goal.

So what we've had is generally mens toilets, womens toilets (often more of them so there are no longer huge differences in waiting for men and women) and in many places there is also at least one unisex, larger, single toilet that is rigged for disabled users and has a change table. Changing rooms for pools and such also tend to have male, female, and family which has individual cubicles.

I find this works really well for a variety of people, and when they get the numbers right usually no one waits for long as there are enough of each kind. I think it gives good options for anyone who doesn't want to use the appropriate male or female toilet, for any reason. I have often used them because I have little kids and I can't fit them all in a stall with me.

The arrangement you describe is commonplace in the U.K. too. , in newer facilities anyway.

So i'm in charge of re-locating us to a new office. A member of staff made a statement recently along the lines of "of course all the toilets will be unisex"

There is currently one male bathroom (2 loos) one female one (2 loos) one disabled. I feel REALLY strongly that there should a female loo. I work in a sector that feels very strongly about trans rights. There are many gay people at work. Currently no trans (although we did have a ftm person). One very vocal person is very vocal about trans rights. Very.

It is going to cause huge issues if I stick to my point. But I am going to. Nothing to say really. I know the law. I know the arguments. But when I make my point, it will be like I've become the most bigoted, racist, sexist person in the world. And I'm just standing up for my (and the other 95% of people in the office) rights as a woman.

Brava!

Is there any scope for adding a mixed sex loo for those that want it in the new office?

Main issue with women’s men’s GN as options is that male people who have no respect for / wish to violate women’s boundaries will simply use the women’s anyway, while men who respect the boundaries will use GN or the men’s.

So it doesn’t keep out the people who most need to be kept out. They will continue to claim their “human right” to use facilities intended for human females.

Personally I think the only thing that will work is for women and men to be firm - if you look male you will be challenged in a woman’s space and that challenge will be supported by law and society more generally.

Passing trans women will still pass and use the women’s and I don’t think there’s anything we can do about it if they are literally undetectable as male.

It is unfortunate that this basically means women are put into positions of potentially having to tell males to get out and as Ms Patrick above shows us, this is dangerous, potentially lethal. But women having to put ourselves in harms way to protect our rights, well what else is new...

Note on above before idiots pounce - butch lesbians look female, not male, unless you are under the impression that clothes define ones sex, in which case you’re a sexist.

Yes, having separate loos does mean there has to be a social understanding of who goes where. That's the real issue, unless there is agreement no solution will work, except perhaps just single rooms toilets in all places. But that is not really practical where there are large numbers of people like at a film.

I do think that occasionally errors are made. Yes, people are good at guessing sex, in fact mostly it's not a guess at all, we know. It's still true that occasionally someone gets it wrong. It can be embarrassing but who never has to be embarrassed in life? It's part of the human condition. It's also true that sometimes someone might not follow the rule and no one notices, but again, everything is like that.

I feel REALLY strongly that there should a female loo.

I would too, but are you sure the intent isn't just to have single bathrooms for all? That works well in smaller workplaces, it probably makes more sense really since it means there isn't an empty toilet while someone is waiting for the other one.

It is going to cause huge issues if I stick to my point. But I am going to. Nothing to say really. I know the law. I know the arguments. But when I make my point, it will be like I've become the most bigoted, racist, sexist person in the world. And I'm just standing up for my (and the other 95% of people in the office) rights as a woman.

Brava

Any decent man who identifies as a woman would have some respect and keep using the men's, so the ones we encounter in the women's are the ones we need to worry about

A lot of 'ordinary' men do seem to use the ladies when in need of a no2 in my experience - another poster actually mentioned it on here the other day. Presumably to avoid sitting on a wet seat and also getting urine on trousers whilst around ankles due to wet floor.

I'd never do it myself but I've seen a fair few do it in smaller offices where there is just a single toilet cubicle for each gender (so no chance of a woman walking in whilst washing hands etc).

Yeah, any decent man who doesn't identify as a woman would also have some respect and keep using the men's, so the ones we encounter in the women's are the ones we need to worry about.

There are two cubicles in each room @Goosefoot - I don't think it's possible to change that.

I don't mind it in pubs or shops where there are completely separate toilets rather than cubicles (well I mind it a bit because I do think women's loos are cleaner than mens but given I don't have any scientific data for that, I won't press that point).

Good look AnnaNimmity. Please us know how you get on.

Maybe the solution is to have more good men in there to protect you from the bad ones. 🤷‍♀️

Obviously segregated toilets are best option, but I wouldn't be surprised if unisex toilets were safer than self-ID (which might attract more deviants as opposed to families who just want to change together).

Obviously segregated toilets are best option, but I wouldn't be surprised if unisex toilets were safer than self-ID (which might attract more deviants as opposed to families who just want to change together).

No, there are statistics which show that more problems occur in mixed sex facilities. To be clear, the main issue isn't transgender people, its males.

Maybe the solution is to have more good men in there to protect you from the bad ones.

And we can tell the difference how exactly?

You're jumping into this discussion without a clue about the basics of issues affecting women, I fear. Don't worry, you're not the first and I'm sure you won't be the last.

Sorry. I am in all seriousness reading up on this and trying to educate myself. I'm just amazed by the fact that I've not met any women outside of mumsnet who seem remotely concerned (or is it for fear of repercussions?).

If it got even one tenth of the attention that Love Island gets then the situation might be very different.

@tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz
No you don't. Most of them you notice of course.