Toilets - what do we want?

[Mxyzptlk]

We don't want men in women's toilets, okay.
Do we want single sex toilets as they've been until now? Can those be maintained against the trans onslaught?
What about the trans rights we say we care about? How can they be upheld without affecting women's right to safe toilets?

What do you think would be the ideal situation, fair to everyone?

Serious question for those who say trans peeps should use the toilets aligned with their natal sex: would you be comfortable with bearded, muscly trans men using the women's loos? Many of them (maybe most?) would simply 'read' as natal men (who would be distinctly unwelcome). Sorry if this has been discussed up thread, I've read most not all of the thread. Not goading, really want to understand.

Serious question for those who say trans peeps should use the toilets aligned with their natal sex: would you be comfortable with bearded, muscly trans men using the women's loos? Many of them (maybe most?) would simply 'read' as natal men (who would be distinctly unwelcome). Sorry if this has been discussed up thread, I've read most not all of the thread. Not goading, really want to understand.

Nobody here is bothered about who goes in the mens. If female people who identify as trans want to use them they can have at it so far as I am concerned. Since they believe themselves to be men, presumably that's where they'll be going. If the men don't like it, they'll have to say so. Nothing to do with feminism.

Toilet provision should be: women only; disabled only; all-comers.

If the men aren't happy with that, up to them to sort it out.

I think you misread my post langcleg, it was about trans men using the women's loos.

curious

lang has answered you

She does not care where the transmen go, gents or ladies

Yes LangCleg I think that the questions about provision for men and women sometimes founders on a false sense of a level playing field.

You know, that old chestnut of “sexist” women. Which completely ignores the fact that sexism is an expression of a power imbalance which is structural not to do with individuals.

So there’s a difference between men in women’s loos, and women in men’s lavatories. Men are responsible for 98% of sexual crimes and women are the majority of their victims.

So the presence of women in men’s loos is not the same (in terms of threat, safeguarding, violence etc) as the presence of men in women’s loos. Or other sex-segregated spaces set aside for women.

Serious question for those who say trans peeps should use the toilets aligned with their natal sex: would you be comfortable with bearded, muscly trans men using the women's loos? Many of them (maybe most?) would simply 'read' as natal men (who would be distinctly unwelcome). Sorry if this has been discussed up thread, I've read most not all of the thread. Not goading, really want to understand

Yes, that's a funny one....on one hand they look like men ( more than trans women look like women, anyway), but on another instinctual level they might well still register as female/non threatening.

I think the best, optimum solution is third spaces/unisex toilets for those that want or prefer them. I wonder how many trans men actually use male toilets; it must be a very discomforting experience for them.

No rufus, langcleg said 'no One here is bothered who goes in the men's', which is a different thing, not what I was asking.

I know what she said

I read your post and hers

But it doesn’t matter

I agree mouthyharpy. Which is why, if I'm honest, I'm not sure I'd uncomfortable with trans men in the women's loos, as I read trans men (usually) as men. But, that slightly contradicts the idea that women's loos should be for natal women.

rufus I've no idea what you mean. Langcleg doesn't have to answer my question, there's no obligation. And she didn't. Not sure why you're claiming she did.

But it doesn't matter.

I said:

Since they believe themselves to be men, presumably that's where they'll be going.

For any reading comprehension issues.

Last time before bed

If female people who identify as trans

Who do you think lang is talking about when she said the above

Anyway off to bed..have a good night curious

langcleg I assume that condescension is aimed at me. Sigh.

Yes LangCleg I think that the questions about provision for men and women sometimes founders on a false sense of a level playing field.

Precisely.

Women don't need a binary sex segregation. They need spaces where men can't go.

No issue with my reading comprehension. Thanks though. My question was swerved. Fair enough if you don't want to answer it- it was about women's toilets, not men's.

But I'm genuinely curious, if anyone else has a view.

Don’t mistake symmetry for equality, much less for liberation.

Just because women do not want males who identify as women in their spaces, that does not mean women must therefore accept in their spaces females who have chosen to identify as and mimic the very class of people that oppress females, esp. since they’d rather not be there in the first place (excepting places like prisons — transmen aren’t exactly demanding to be housed with male prisoners, and for good reason: it’s truly a wonder how clearly material reality can assert itself.)

From my own limited experience, Buck Angel aside, transmen rarely pass as much as claimed. Voice is usually a dead giveaway, even with T. So are stature, hand size, facial bones, narrow chests, pelvic shape.

Most transmen in a woman’s space, as soon as they explained they were female, would be easily recognised by other women.

But I'm genuinely curious, if anyone else has a view

I responded......

Obviously most focus has been on men in women's toilets, as men tend to pose more of an 'instinctual' threat to women, whether the men in question are a genuine threat or not.

i know of one trans man in my city who is known for being super aggressive.......and banned from women's events on account of that. I'm not sure I'd want her with that 'pose' in women's toilets anymore than I would a man in women's toilets. She feels she has to be super aggressive and hyper masculinised .

Thanks bickerinbattle, interesting. No i ABSOLUTELY don't mistake symmetry for equality, at all.
I recently went somewhere where all the loos were fully enclosed cubicles with sinks mirrors etc. Properly sturdily built, iykwim. They all opened onto a corridor so not a place of congregation. They were for anyone to use. I thought It worked well. Can't remember where they were, possibly Tate Modern. I didn't mind them.

My question was swerved.

It wasn't swerved.

Riddle me this: why would "trans men" want to go in the ladies, if they believe themselves to be men?

You asked a question assuming feminists are demanding a binary separation of the sexes when they are not: they are asking for women-only spaces. I answered you. They are not requiring women to be forced to use them: particularly if those women believe themselves to be men. These folk should be allowed to go in the men's loos, where they believe themselves to belong.

The post at 23:30 saying bunch of tits was not me.

Reporting.

Sorry justhadathought didn't mean not to acknowledge your response. I would tend to agree with you.

I hasten to add, though, that radical feminists stand by and support ALL women, and whether they choose ever to avail themselves of that support or not, it’s there for transmen, who remain female to radical feminists.

I ran into this in connection with a lesbian dance, in which the organisers had welcomed TW but not TM, claiming that the TM would be upsetting and threatening in a women’s space.

The problem with that: it’s far more common for lesbians to be involved with TM than with TW — because they’re homoSEXual, not homoGENDERal.

The organiser’s decision caused a great deal of hurt. To my trans friends who are female, I said: radical feminists would never have hurt you like that, though you might not like the reason why. But in fact they do not deny that they remain female, while identifying as men.

As I said, the situations with TW and TM are not symmetrical. It’s a mistake to treat them as if they were.

• Riddle me this: why would "trans men" want to go in the ladies, if they believe themselves to be men?

I'm not going to riddle you this, because that is not what I was wondering about, and I've no interest in speculating right now. Of course they can use the men's loos, or attempt to, or whatever. I wondered how people felt about trans men using women's loos (as you know), which some posters responded to in the spirit in which it was asked.

The post at 23:30 saying bunch of tits was not me.

No, it was ‘LangCieg’ with a capital i instead of the l

If you hover over the user name in the browser version you can see this.

. ...suggest everyone with lowercase L or uppercase i in their NNs registers the alternatives. (I’ve just done mine) . Not sure if there are any other letters which are so indistinguishable.

I’ve also suggested to MN they might want to use a serif font to display usernames.