Toilets - what do we want?

[Mxyzptlk]

We don't want men in women's toilets, okay.
Do we want single sex toilets as they've been until now? Can those be maintained against the trans onslaught?
What about the trans rights we say we care about? How can they be upheld without affecting women's right to safe toilets?

What do you think would be the ideal situation, fair to everyone?

trans campaigning groups like Stonewall should be pushing for ALL men to be safe in male toilets, whether they present as male or not

They should.
I wonder why our allies like Debbie and Kristina don't seem to be doing this.
I have seen Hope Lye say he never has any problem in male toilets.
(I believe 'he' is Hope's preferred pronoun).

Miranda Yardley uses men’s toilets too. I think it shows a lot more respect for women.

I don't think transwomen should be in female spaces if natal women are uncomfortable with it, but normalising 'passing' transwomen in the men's toilets potentially creates it's own raft of issues.

A common argument against self ID is that it allows any man to walk unchallenged into the ladies. On the flipside, how do we stop any natal female with ill intentions from walking into the men's if passing transwomen are accepted? We can't exactly check their genitalia.

Women don't commit sexual crimes at the same rate as men but there have definitely been a fair few cases of women (teachers etc) praying on young boys. What if somebody was to walk in and covertly photograph men in the nude for 'revenge' or blackmail purposes. Highly unlikely but not to be discounted.

Most adults can tell a TW from a mile off, but could a young boy?

what do we want?

Who is this "we" of whom you speak?

What about the trans rights we say we care about?

Again, who is this "we"?

I care about women's rights and I post here because this is a feminist forum, focusing on women's rights.

I want women's single sex toilet provision retained and improved. I want good access for disabled women so I want disabled toilet provision retained and improved.

How the XYs organise themselves? Don't give a shit.

how do we stop any natal female with ill intentions from walking into the men's

What are they going to do? Wither their willies with a single glance?

Agree with PP. We want female toilets, disabled toilets, and make the men’s gender neutral.

What are they going to do? Wither their willies with a single glance?

So it's only the safety of young girls that matters?

I don't think young children of either sex should be unwillingly naked in the presence of strangers of the opposite sex.

AnotherAdult when you said -

Because trans women are male, they should be broadening the definition of what it means to be a man.

I've never thought of it as that simple sentence. That's really what it comes down to for me 👏

And when trans people start having this conversation with men perhaps they can start flexing their considerable social and political muscle to work with men to address male violence. This is why trans women don't feel safe in men's facilities so clearly this needs addressing.

What if somebody was to walk in and covertly photograph men in the nude for 'revenge' or blackmail purposes. Highly unlikely but not to be discounted

Do men take all their kit off when using urinals? You’d better tell all those blokes using outdoor urinals in London , it’ll be nippy in Winter.

A common argument against self ID is that it allows any man to walk unchallenged into the ladies. On the flipside, how do we stop any natal female with ill intentions from walking into the men's if passing transwomen are accepted? We can't exactly check their genitalia.

That's down to men to deal with - they can look into solutions that work for them and fight for them. They won't, but they have the option.

The problem with the above is that most tw would want to still use the female toilets because that provides their validation.

How the XYs organise themselves? Don't give a shit.

Unfortunately, they're getting a lot of help in pushing themselves into women's toilets so I thought it could be good to think of a sensible solution.
(Not that I expect anyone to want to know).

Pps worried about nefarious females in men's toilets - what's your suggested solution?

That's down to men to deal with - they can look into solutions that work for them and fight for them.

But it's not the men's toilets they want access to. Not a problem even on most men's radar.

I don't want to share toilet facilities with men, I wont feel safe or comfortable.
I don't like the single cubicle mixed gender ones either because men leave the seat up and piss all over the floor / seat and they are generally smellier than the standard, old school, ladies loos. Can we just stay traditional where the toilets are concerned. Ladies, gents, disabled access & baby change.

I've seen a you tube clip needmoresleep of two young TW students at a US university say, when asked, that they wouldn't use gender neutral toilets as it would 'out them'. You are exactly right, they want to use the women's loos as they think they belong in there.

If the men ever did budge up and accept TW and TM in their loos (my DH has a TM use the men's lips without issue at work) then that might mean some might be respectful and use them and leave the women to their safe space but I don't think that would make all TW.

As no one changes sex in my ideal world people would pee according to their biology and not who they think they are as that has worked well for decades and yes to having more and better facilities for disabled people (of both sexes). As PP said, when we get there we can help sort issues with women and girls in countries where they have nothing, then and only then can we start attending to TW and TM in first world countries.

DailyBrie

I was referring to you talking about women going into the men's. I care about keeping men out of the women's toilets. It's down to men to sort out their own toilets.

Ideally separate male and female toilets segregated by sex, disabled, unisex and also unisex baby changing facilities with room for a buggy. Don't think this will happen anytime soon too expensive and uses up a lot of space.

Could ask if men would have gender neutral toilets and a separate area for urinals, this would also help males with small children. Then separate female and disabled with baby changing in all.

The best option is female only toilets. However the I would argue that unisex toliets are safer than female toilets where anyone who identified as female can use. Most men are decent and the decent ones won't be using the female toilets just now. So by having them unisex it reduces the percentage of males who have an alterior motive and thereby increases safety as the decent males would help protect against any preditors (I know my husband would). It also means everyone knows what to expect and people would accompany their kids instead of assuming that the female toilets mean female. This would also help with young boys safety. The unisex and separate female would do this as well and better tho. Hope that made sense.

I've seen a you tube clip needmoresleep of two young TW students at a US university say, when asked, that they wouldn't use gender neutral toilets as it would 'out them'. You are exactly right, they want to use the women's loos as they think they belong in there.

Entitled and intrusive. But as for the ‘outing’, if everyone who’s happy to use mixed sex toilets uses them then the TWs won’t stick out. And women who prefer their own space will have the women’s toilets.

Exactly. Loads of people are happy to use single cubicles so it won't "out" anyone. Not that many transgender people are "in" in practice.

I think the only solution is to provide a unisex option with cubicles or single fully enclosed space, on top of the existing men's, women's and disabled.
It could be useful for parents, people with carers (who don't need the disabled facilities) as well as trans people. There is no reason why it should out anyone.

Although I'd still feel slightly embarrassed exiting the gender neutral cubicle straight into a public area

I wouldn’t, ill go wherever the queue is shorter.

The fact of the matter is, toilets are low priority.
Nothing will change.

Here in the UK, public toilets are almost a thing of the past unless part of a shopping centre or private business. They are cutting them to save money, and also making them gender neutral to save money.

Campaigning to change public toilets seems like s fools errand.
Whether people agree with different interpretations of the EA2010 most politicians would say this satisfactorily deals with the processes involving trans inclusion, and as it is almost ten years ago, there simply is not any evidence to produce that would reverse the current standing.

And private business will not invest more money on toilets to work to a gender critical persuasion because most of them, especially high street, are vocal in their lgbt support, and are visible trans allies.

It's a tough one!