Toilets - what do we want?

[Mxyzptlk]

We don't want men in women's toilets, okay.
Do we want single sex toilets as they've been until now? Can those be maintained against the trans onslaught?
What about the trans rights we say we care about? How can they be upheld without affecting women's right to safe toilets?

What do you think would be the ideal situation, fair to everyone?

May I suggest cactus that if you expect people to respond to your inquiries, however dissatisfied you may be with their responses, it is only reasonable to return the courtesy by responding to theirs.
Unidirectional quizzes rarely prosper on this forum.

I’ve also suggested to MN they might want to use a serif font to display usernames.
Do you think this should be taken to site stuff?
There has been a marked increase in harassment of the FWR posters.

Good idea, I've done that.

Good idea errol

Ive done that

Oh

Now it looks like i am copying you

Thanks Errol!

I see the user has been banned so I'm off to see if I can now register that name. (MNHQ has not replied to my report so unsure.)

No, I can't register it. I suppose that doesn't matter if the person who did is now banned?

Hi Lang,
You should have an answer from us, would you mind checking your spam folder? But yes, just to give you the update, we have banned the user who did this, which means that the name can't be used by anyone else, and we have flagged this as an area of concern to Tech.
Sorry for the shock, though, it certainly wasn't your usual standard of discourse!

it certainly wasn't your usual standard of discourse

Is it very wrong that when i saw it i just assumed it was posted on the wrong thread

Thanks Hope - will do!

Is it very wrong that when i saw it i just assumed it was posted on the wrong thread

Something something tits something something.

I expect Rufus was thinking of this sort of thing.

Absolutely errol

Ive always had lang down as a keen bird watcher

I'm going to tell Hope on all of you lot.

Can't remember where they were, possibly Tate Modern. I didn't mind them

That sort of arangment is now common in many gallery type spaces; however, I'm not sure that many women would feel quite so comfortable using them in pubs, bars, clubs as part of a night time economy.

arrangement

Serious question for those who say trans peeps should use the toilets aligned with their natal sex: would you be comfortable with bearded, muscly trans men using the women's loos?

It's a good question, but it's irrelevant to my position on brave and stunning transwomen in my spaces.

You're setting up two options:
a) transmen in the ladies being all intimidatey with their approximation of male-typical secondary sex characteristics (bad because violates our privacy&dignity rights and sense of personal safety)
b) transmen in the gents being in possession of an unpatchable security vulnerability (bad because they might get raped)

Asking us to choose between these two options is a catch-22. If we choose a) we leave ourselves open to accusations of holding an internally-inconsistent hence illogical and invalid position; if we choose b) we leave ourselves open to accusations of enabling the rape of transmen by refusing to allow them admittance. Either way we lose.

So leave them out of this, and listen carefully:

They're our sisters, mate. (And for some of us, our actual literal daughters that we birthed with our own bodies, too.) And you're unwittingly exploiting their lived experience as members of an oppressed class in order to further entrench the dominance of their oppressors.

It's not kosher, y'know? Knock it off.

The question I am actually interested in answering is pretty simple. This is the question that is fundamental to my position re: tw in my spaces. This is the big one. This is the one you need to be asking yourself.

Which is better, for women and girls, who are an oppressed sex-class?
a) transmen accommodated in the ladies' despite beards
OR
b) transwomen accommodated in the ladies' despite penises, male socialisation, and alarming correlation with sexual offences

Not too complex or nuanced at all, really, when you put it like that, is it?

My (unpopular but mine) opinion is that:

.gender dysphoria shouldn't be a disability, because 'roles'/personalities and fashion taste should not be rigidly assigned to sex. In an advanced society, men and women can be themselves without experiencing mental fallout that their preferences, attached to the 'wrong' sex stereotype must mean they are the opposite sex. In itself, dressing and behaving 'differently' to your expected role isn't a disability.

. We are yet to do away with 'gender' stereotyping, so some people in society who do not conform have developed uncomfortable side effects (dysphoria) which represents a social disability.

. I wouldn't necessarily expect somebody with anxiety attacks or other mental health differences not to use the disabled toilets

. Therefore, considering the small amount of people with dysphoria, disabled toilet access would offer compromise between their discomfort and ours. AGPs can't make gains, I imagine that's why open access to the ladies is so abhorrent on Twitter. There are not enough people with genuine gender dysphoria (which may stop existing if we remove cultural stereotypes) to realistically tip the balance for access by those with incontinence or access problems. People with GD are a tiny% of the population. AGPs would probably lose the allure once fetishes are not met. Trans men have consent on the level of risk they face and can choose accordingly.

. Otherwise as others have commented, ladies, disabled and unisex.

I'm not sure having thought about it on a practical level why gender neutral loos would be outing.

1. Re fully transitioned as presenting as female this would be a choice, surely and I don't personally have such an issue with this. surely a fully transitioned TW is already out.
2. More tricky is the self ID scenario. Surely a person who is clearly male going into the female loos is outing? for this person to use a gender neutral facility may be more "accepted" by others? is it necessary that because you "feel your a woman" at the time you want to pee, essential that you use the womens facilities, as essentially as this is a transient feeling, you may feel like a man mid-pee anyhow?

Whilst I have used the word accepted, and Trans people may feel that I am using this to base their acceptance by society of having to "categorise" them. Surely that is not necessarily entirely negative and creates safety for both groups of both natal women& children and TW.

I wouldn’t like transmen in the men’s mainly for the principle of it but no I wouldn’t feel in physical danger as per the opposite. I’d feel more confident in being able to win a scrap with them then the everyday men there weapons excluded.

As for people having to go into the same bog as their sex I can’t really argue against that but doesn’t mean I particularly want to share spaces with them either because of the people I see in the media who tend to be very aggressive (which justifies more so women not being forced to share a space with them). Yes I’m a man but so are they so capable of giving me a hiding for saying the ‘wrong’ thing and it doesn’t take much to set them off.

A non binary / tranny dedicated facility would be the most preferable but of course we know many would never except that. It’s like the Hampstead pond shit when there was a men’s, women’s and mixed one available and rather than going for the mixed they insist on attending the women’s with their lady cocks

People have to remember the trans women are real women mantra so would never be satisfied with a third space. It would only work if we completely got rid of male and female only facilities altogether as anything less like offering gender neutral places as an additional extra would be shot down and not being fair by treating trans women differently to the old fashioned view of what constitutes women. I’ve specifically talked about trans women because I’ve found no controversy or crazy claims from trans men not being allowed to use the men’s. Except someone I once read about being the told they weren’t allowed in gay men’s sauna

Just tell men to wind their necks in, doesn't matter how they bloody "identify".

Girls and women are girls and women. As part of our human rights, we are entitled to our safety, dignity and privacy, away from men. And men should have no right to gatecrash.

Caucho quick, report your post and ask them to delete the banned word, we don’t want any Disappearings today 👻