Toilets - what do we want?

[Mxyzptlk]

We don't want men in women's toilets, okay.
Do we want single sex toilets as they've been until now? Can those be maintained against the trans onslaught?
What about the trans rights we say we care about? How can they be upheld without affecting women's right to safe toilets?

What do you think would be the ideal situation, fair to everyone?

I agree too Tyro.

Who knows (in my case) which women at work have been subject to trauma. Who knows what our fears may be. Who knows about the men who use the toilets?

But even if it were the case that all people with penises at work are absolutely lovely, and there were no women who had suffered any trauma from men, or had any fear of men, (and who hasn't suffered from men?!), I still have a right as a woman to have a woman only space. And I object to my right being eroded by anyone.

I still have a right as a woman to have a woman only space.

I agree, Anna.

It's disheartening that so many others dispute the existence of that particular women's right. That so many are clearly only paying lip-service to the concept of universal human rights.

That in order for us to have a chance at being permitted to retain any of the collective defences we've fought for - in the face of men's millennia-long assertion that women are not human; women do not have human rights; women are objects to be manipulated and exploited, nothing more - we have to fight our conditioning, break social norms, and expose enormous vulnerabilities by shouting from the rooftops about the material reality of our traumas.

And by 'disheartening' I mean it fucks me right off. We shouldn't have to do it. (I'm going to do it anyway, because if I don't then my traumatised sisters can never expect better accommodation of their universal human rights than I've been granted. But it's a hell of a burden for society to place on survivors of rape and csa.)

Brava Tyro

I dislike the phrase 'check your privilege', but it's quite apt for women who blithely agree to the dismantling of women's spaces because it doesn't bother them personally.

I would too, but are you sure the intent isn't just to have single bathrooms for all? That works well in smaller workplaces, it probably makes more sense really since it means there isn't an empty toilet while someone is waiting for the other one

Work places are one thing; night clubs, bars etc which operate in a night-time economy are another.

Was in the toilet of a pub in Edinburgh last week, and there was a notice on the mirror by the sinks - giving the name of a female member of staff who could be alerted if a woman was feeling unsafe with her date, or who was in any other way feeling threatened by the man she was with. women use toilets, sometimes, as a place of escape and refuge.

*Sorry. I am in all seriousness reading up on this and trying to educate myself. I'm just amazed by the fact that I've not met any women outside of mumsnet who seem remotely concerned (or is it for fear of repercussions?).
*

Not sure who you socialise with or talk to, but I know most women when confronted with the reality are not so happy about it at all. In fact, there was a radio phone in discussion on my local radio station, and most of the callers were not happy with mixed sex toilets at all. These were just ordinary women ( & some men) of all ages and backgrounds.

I think a lot of people are imagining work/office loos...not genuinely public toilets - in shops, bars, restaurants etc.

As a bloke, I'm not keen on the gents becoming unisex tbh. I don't want women potentially walking in whilst I'm at the urinal with my bits out

Urinals will be phased out...and everyone would be expected to use a toilet.

Urinals will be phased out...and everyone would be expected to use a toilet.

And we'll still have an issue around some men not bothering to close the cubicle door.

Eventually some bright spark will come up with the idea of a locked toilet lid that's hooked up to the lock on the cubicle door, so you can't actually piss in the toilet unless the door's closed.

This will reduce but not eradicate the incidence of the men-leaving-the-door-open issue, increase the incidence of the men-pissing-all-over-the-floor issue, disadvantage all women by lengthening the time we have to devote to the door shut /seat down / seat mopped / feet carefully placed to avoid puddles etc etc issue, and be hailed as a victory for equality&transrights and publicly celebrated accordingly.

Or we could just put our collective foot down now and say "We've patiently explained our hard boundary in this scenario approximately eleventy billion fucking times already. No is not the start of a negotiation. Fuck off with this 'asserting your right to violate my rights' bollocks."

Part of me can't help but wonder whether using unisex toilets and actually surviving the ordeal might facilitate some of the more doom mongering souls in realising that men aren't actually rapists by and large. Although I of course appreciate that it would be very wrong to enforce this.

What, make us all share toilets with you to prove that many of you are decent blokes? Well, there’s this: www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html but how kind of you to appreciate that it would be ‘very wrong to enforce this’. If you actually want to be any help, I suggest you go onto trans forums & persuade them that they should all be using the men’s toilets because they’d be quite safe. Then you can all leave us in peace.

Part of me can't help but wonder whether using unisex toilets and actually surviving the ordeal might facilitate some of the more doom mongering souls in realising that men aren't actually rapists by and large. Although I of course appreciate that it would be very wrong to enforce this.

Where would the rapists and oglers go for a piss in this scenario, oh Man of Reason?

Empress is spot on Manofreason and I’ve amended your post for you to help you along:
Part of me can't help but wonder whether using men’s toilets and actually surviving the ordeal might facilitate some of the more doom mongering transwomen in realising that men aren't actually rapists by and large
Pass on the feedback from trans forums and remember : men shouldn’t be scared of other men , they’ll be in and out for a quick wee in no time, if all transwomen have to worry about is who they’re peeing next to then they’re privileged, etc .....

more doom mongering souls in realising that men aren't actually rapists by and large

Look, I know it’s tough for ordinary non/rapist blokes to have to deal with being suspected. But you know, until someone invents a way for women to know for absolutely-bloody-certain which men are the good ‘uns and which are the rapists, were going to have to set in place boundaries which safeguard all women and girls from all men and boys.

And actually, all men being treated as if they were potential rapists is a pale imitation of the way all women are treated as if they are simultaneously sluts and prudes, slags and cockteasers, child-hating career women and lazy stay at home mothers, ball-tearing bossy women and gold-diggers seeking to seduce men from their money.
I mean most women are subject to all of this all the time ... so you know, count your blessings.

Part of me can't help but wonder whether using unisex toilets and actually surviving the ordeal might facilitate some of the more doom mongering souls in realising that men aren't actually rapists by and large.

Your fellow men beg to differ, I'm afraid. To such an extent that they are willing to allow, for instance, convicted rapists to sexually assault incarcerated women. That's how petrifying your fellow men say you are.

None of this could happen without an entire cohort of men claiming that the spaces you, as a man, inhabit, are incredibly dangerous to them.

So instead of telling women how dangerous you aren't, try telling other men to stop shouting from the rooftops how dangerous you all are, eh? Then, perhaps, you might all stop fucking us over.

Look, I know it’s tough for ordinary non/rapist blokes to have to deal with being suspected. But you know, until someone invents a way for women to know for absolutely-bloody-certain which men are the good ‘uns and which are the rapists, were going to have to set in place boundaries which safeguard all women and girls from all men and boys.

Even then.

There are plenty of blokes I trust, family & friends. That doesn’t mean I want to share a communal changing room with them or walk past their urinals on the way to a cubicle. Plus surely ‘ordinary / non-rapist blokes’ are more likely to be the ones who get why we need separate spaces & not be pushing to join us?

Man obviously didn’t get the attention they wanted in their earlier posts and is now stirring the pot

The attention seeking is boring...and childish

I went to a couple of pubs this weekend. One had the solution I mentioned on here a few months ago-not men/woman buy outright said ‘cock’ and ‘vagina’! Yeah I was shocked too but hey solved the feels problem.

The other had 5 full cubicles that said cubicle on and a foot that said urinals. Again no feelz gendering.

Man obviously didn’t get the attention they wanted in their earlier posts and is now stirring the pot

I quite enjoyed his previous argument, which was that in unisex toilets women can feel comfort knowing that they are wading in the piss of mostly good men. Or something along those lines.

I quite enjoyed his previous argument

I obviously missed his thoughtful...nay...insightful post

NOT!

So

On the subject of the urine of good men

I read the other day that it was silly getting overwrought about a few drops of pee on a bog seat because healthy adult wee is sterile

HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW IF THE PISSER IS HEALTHY

all the single unit toilets I have used stink of pee. If they have them they should have a female only one available or maybe some kind of ban on seeing standing up 😝

HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW IF THE PISSER IS HEALTHY

You don't, but you're hurting the feelings of healthy pissers when you refuse to sit on that drop.

I did not think of that thepuported

Excellent point well made

Women's and men's toilets a disabled one preferably inside the other toilets and a separate gender neutral one. I took my DD to dance class the other week. There was a men's changing room and a gender neutral one but I couldn't find a women's one near the studio.

I always remember as a student the horrifying moment when I looked up and saw a man looking over the top at me! - Absolutely terrifying. All toilets should be floor to ceiling in my opinion.