Toilets - what do we want?

[Mxyzptlk]

We don't want men in women's toilets, okay.
Do we want single sex toilets as they've been until now? Can those be maintained against the trans onslaught?
What about the trans rights we say we care about? How can they be upheld without affecting women's right to safe toilets?

What do you think would be the ideal situation, fair to everyone?

Every single article I've read about the issue in recent months negatively calls transactivists 'a small but vocal minority'. It's like a label now.

So God knows what it was they asked to get that result.

I wish we had an edit post option, so I could stop double-posting all over the place.

But. I have just realised that it is transphobic, in toilet situations, for us to correctly assess women like Harnaam Kaur as females with a condition affecting hormones. Because we would do so by noting a range of secondary sex characteristics and concluding they are members of a class with a low risk profile.

Which means - setting men's risk profile to one side for a moment - it is transphobic to acknowledge that females pose a very low risk of committing sexual violence and factor this into risk-assessment.

Therefore, in order to be inclusive and tolerant, I am required to assume that the female in the next cubicle may well be a dangerous sexual predator, and act accordingly.

So: it is transphobic to view males as a threat; and it is transphobic not to view females as a threat.

Ergo trusting females to have benign intentions is transphobic.

It does hurt my brain at times, following these logic trains to their conclusion, yet it is nevertheless illuminating.

Neither sex should have unisex toilets forced on them IMO. Those who would force it on men surely aren't much better than the men who would do the same to women.

But if the mens were unisex they would have no actual females in them just penis / y chromosome owners.

If women's are unisex, they will be full of all sorts.

That's all conjecture though. In reality there are very few trans people about. It's not even on most women's radar from what I can see. But not really interested in arguing about it tbh.

If women's are unisex, they will be full of all sorts.

This isn't conjecture, it's logic.

Some men appreciate women's need for single-sex spaces, and will self-exclude from spaces containing women out of deference to this need.

Some men don't give a lot of thought to women's need for single-sex spaces, but would like to be able to piss without eg hen parties or little girls around, and so will self-exclude from these spaces.

Some men don't give a shit about women's needs and are happy to whip their dicks out with women and girls in the vicinity. They will not self-exclude.

Some men have nefarious intentions. They will refuse to self-exclude.

The men who aren't covered by the label "all sorts" will self-exclude. The men who don't self-exclude are the ones who need self-excluding - the "all sorts".

Late to thread, but I want to pipe up and say I intensely dislike self-contained single occupancy unisex toilets. I don't like the fact that a messy or perverted man may have gone in there before me and pissed everywhere or put a camera or had a wank in it. I don't like the thought a perv could root through the San pro after me. I don't like waiting in the same queue as men or crossing paths with a male stranger as I enter or leave. I find it unnecessarily intimidating.

I like single sex multi-occupancy facilities because it is a female space where there will only other women should I need help (eg to ask for a spare tampon, to check if a creep is no longer outside, keep an eye on my pram or call a doctor).

I was quite happy with it all, apart from not enough provision until people, mostly males, with identity issues and their handmaidens started complaining.

People who are not happy with single sex provision should campaign for something else in addition to women's provision, and since men seem to have excess provision according to the rarity of their queues, these extra spaces should be taken from men's provision (if indeed anyone must lose) where there simply a lack of space, or, where this isn't plausible, people with identity issues should use their correct sex provision. After all, no one pisses out of their identity.

exasperatedharridan totally agree. Some of the women I work with have miscarried in public toilets. It's rare but that doesn't matter. If its happened once its important. There should be no place for males in any guise in women's toilets.

There should be no place for males in any guise in women's toilets.

...and the insistence by some men on their 'right' to be there is the very first clue that they shouldn't.

There should be no place for males in any guise in women's toilets.

...and the insistence by some men on their 'right' to be there is the very first clue that they shouldn't.

Exactly. And men who don't want to find their toilets made unisex should be a) working with women to make sure that toilets stay segregated by sex, not gender, b) working with other men to ensure that ALL men are safe in male toilets, however they present or identify.

On a sllghtly different subject but still on women's loos. Why are they so small. The ones in the local park (women only - so far! I mean men's are separate) you have to climb over the toilet before you can shut the door they are that tiny. The ones in M&S in Westfield are not much better!

I wonder how many men will be happy to queue in the loos like we have to ?

A surprising number of men at my workplace sneak into the ladies when they need a no.2, presumably because we have a few seat sprayers amongst our numbers - there's not many of us on our floor as they can tell when the toilet is free.

so they can tell I meant.

Toilets should be segregated by sex. No other rule necessary. If TW claim males are dangerous, that is their whole demand for self ID blown out of the water.

A surprising number of men at my workplace sneak into the ladies when they need a no.2, presumably because we have a few seat sprayers amongst our numbers - there's not many of us on our floor as they can tell when the toilet is free.

That's absolutely pathetic. Why don't these men just wipe the seat clean before sitting down?

It's revolting. You piss on your own seat, and then take a shit in someone else's space. What's wrong with them?

AlessandraAsteriti
If TW claim males are dangerous, that is their whole demand for self ID blown out of the water.

It's so obvious that I can never get my head around the way allies ignore this OBVIOUS FACT.

...except that's the whole point of the TWAW argument, and why it's so important to not accept it.

What do we think the results would be if the question were reworded: "Are you happy sharing toilets with male crossdressers?"

Or even, if the question was: "Are you happy sharing toilets with male individuals who get a sexual thrill from crossdressing and have fully functioning penis and testicles?"

Surely if you genuinely want an honest answer you have to ask an honest question? The fact it's been so coyly disguised is telling.

The debate reminds me more of when women were fighting to get the right to vote due to not being allowed such an opinion because men thought they knew best.

I read something this week which pointed out that men did not give women the right to vote.
They kept it from us.

I've often heard 'gnc men are assaulted in the men's toilets'.

Has this ever been recorded as a crime, in those terms, cos I'm very curious about the answer?

Even if they have fully transitioned and pass as a woman?
I want single sex toilets. However I am realistic. If a trans woman passes as a woman, nobody is going to check. In my experience trans women who want to pass are not the problem anyway.

It's revolting. You piss on your own seat, and then take a shit in someone else's space. What's wrong with them?

I don't know why, but it reminds me of my dad, who used to call our mother 'Mother' but only when something needed done that was beyond his capacity as a man. Like cleaning, for example.

Even if they have fully transitioned and pass as a woman?

In the minuscule % of people who are tw, the sub-% of tw who pass beyond a still, carefully posed and lit, photo is microscopic. So the chances you will encounter one are low; and then you'd not know anyway. Ergo, every TW you recognise will be a male sexed person.

(And anyway, it's not just superficial looks, its bone structure, body build and composition, gait, the way men move though space, even their own human smell. We have 6 senses (including spidey) and they work almost perfectly every time)

I'd be happy to see more large cubicle toilets for people with disabilities, but also parent/child toilets. I think it's quite hard for a dad accompanying, say, his five year old daughter to know whether to use the women's or the men's toilets.