Toilets - what do we want?

[Mxyzptlk]

We don't want men in women's toilets, okay.
Do we want single sex toilets as they've been until now? Can those be maintained against the trans onslaught?
What about the trans rights we say we care about? How can they be upheld without affecting women's right to safe toilets?

What do you think would be the ideal situation, fair to everyone?

Rufus

Rufus

This whole debate always reminds me of the way the debate about homosexuality went when section 28 was repealed.

Anyway unless you are checking what people have in their pants you will probably not know what gender they are.

There you go, bandying about words like homosexuality and gender, when you don't stand a cat's chance in hell of actually defining what they mean.

But feel perfectly entitled to call people ugly and intolerant, on the same basis.

Remarkable.

it doesn't really affect me because I am disabled and barely use toilets out because they are disgusting and filthy in my area where people pee on the seats but that's the problem with disabled toilets they are for men and woman there is no woman only disabled bathrooms so men can pee all over them because they wont lift the seat

The debate reminds me more of when women were fighting to get the right to vote due to not being allowed such an opinion because men thought they knew best.

I'm sure those men thought that women voting was low priority though and that no-one really cared.

Anyway unless you are checking what people have in their pants you will probably not know what gender they are.

I've just realised that that's a REALLY TRANSPHOBIC COMMENT.

I've just realised that that's a REALLY TRANSPHOBIC COMMENT.

Explain? I thought it was just a bit dim Along the lines of all those people who claim that 'trans have been using women's loos for years and you never noticed hahaha'.

Explain? I thought it was just a bit dim grin Along the lines of all those people who claim that 'trans have been using women's loos for years and you never noticed hahaha'.

Oh yes, it's dim. But it's also implying that genitals are linked to gender, which goes right against the whole idea of women having penises.

In the National Survey of British Attitudes 34, I think.
86% of women, are comfortable sharing with trans women.

Oh yes, it's dim. But it's also implying that genitals are linked to gender, which goes right against the whole idea of women having penises.

Quite.

Yeah, sure they are

God loves a trier, so they say. Goddess, not so much.

joss I've googled that survey and can only see that 3000 people were surveyed and no indication of the breakdown of respondents by sex.

I'm reserving judgement on that conclusion as even best case scenario all respondents were women 3000 is hardly representative of all women.

And I may have read wrong but I think it said data was from 2016?

86% of women, are comfortable sharing with trans women.

And not a single one of them has the right to give away my human rights.

The 14% have power of veto on this one.

Joss is advocating for the principle that human rights may be removed from an oppressed class by popular consensus.

I say no.

Is it this one? Can’t see the figure quoted , correct me if I’ve missed it.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/775589/Attitudes-equality-social-attitudes-survey-2017a.pdf
If however its make up data time, I’d like to have a go too; 135% of men are comfortable sharing with transwomen (yes 135 out of 100 can’t beat that!).

What do we think the results would be if the question were reworded: "Are you happy sharing toilets with male crossdressers?"

That data has been questioned before because it doesn't define for people what a trans person is and it can mean many things to many people.

Whether the data is valid or pulled out of someone's arse is a diversion.

No percentage of women will ever have the right to consent to the removal of my right to single-sex spaces.

Because no one has the right to give consent on my behalf.

And not a single one of them has the right to give away my human rights.

The 14% have power of veto on this one.

Absolutely this.

Not that I believe 86% of women actually are happy to share (what definition of 'trans' are we using this week? Gender dysphoric? AGP? Drag queen?) but even if it were 99%, we listen to the 1% who aren't happy. When there are so many other options than women giving up their space, the space that society has agreed for decades is a fair and proportionate response to the risk that males as a class pose to women as a class, there is no reason whatsoever to trample over the rights of those who want a space where they can be vulnerably female in safety, privacy and with dignity.

I certainly agree but it would be interesting to here the response from women if the survey were accompanied by pictures of Alex Drummond and Daniel Muscato, for instance.

*hear the response 🙄

Not sure that would be allowed, Doyou.

We're not allowed to use secondary sex characteristics to assess the likelihood that an individual is a member of a statistically high-risk class any more.

It's either transphobic to link these characteristics to one sex class or the other; or it's... discriminating against women whose natural bodies fall outside a narrowly-defined male-gaze-centred range in one particular regard?

I'm a bit unsure on this latter because no one's ever managed to explain it in a way that makes sense and correlates with reality, but it's definitely 100% transphobic.

Basically, it's mean to observe people's sex. Because reasons.