Toilets - what do we want?

[Mxyzptlk]

We don't want men in women's toilets, okay.
Do we want single sex toilets as they've been until now? Can those be maintained against the trans onslaught?
What about the trans rights we say we care about? How can they be upheld without affecting women's right to safe toilets?

What do you think would be the ideal situation, fair to everyone?

. I agree that the best thing would be women's/men's/disabled loos/gender neutral spaces thy double up as large baby change. (DH has had to
Go in with DS2 when young for
Changing and there's no facilities!) I agree transwomen shoud ideally use the men's loos. But as someone has mentioned we get to the issue of passing, which is going to slowly happen more with some trans girls not going through puberty. (I don't agree with this just a point) and it does need to be on the men as a reason TW also don't like using men's is because they can get harassed, I know just like a women. This shouldn't impinge on our rights so again in needs to be in men to allow transwomen in the space and I think this extends to making sure there are more cubicles on men's toilets as this will make them feel safer, and needed if in the small percentage are post op.
But again it's hard with the trans argument. Because if no transwomen should use a women's toilet. There's also no trans men should use men's toilets and as we know it is slightly easier to pass as a trans man and taking T makes them physically stronger and can seem intimidating.

I think you just basically went through all GC proposed solutions, and explained why they dont work in one post.

Well done.

Reassign the men's toilets as unisex and make the women's toilets single sex.

Men should grow the fuck up and stop harrassing other males who don't conform to their bullshit standard of masculinity, and stop harrassing females who would prefer a single sex space.

All those women who identify as 'cis' can go in the unisex toilets alongside the men and the trans people.

The fact of the matter is, toilets are low priority.
Nothing will change.

What Joss Prior, trans woman and known MN botherer, is trying to say here is:

'We'll continue to make our presence known in women's spaces, despite not actually being women, and enjoying the fact that we upset rape and sexual assault survivors because we've been socialised as men but now we have fabulous headbands so we MUST be women'.

Thinks they can scare us into submission - pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Not gonna happen. There simply any kind of real push for revolutionising toilets.

To be honest it screams of privilege.

Given the cuts to social health, sure start-centres, universal credit, that target and harm women disproportionately, to think they would prioritise public toilets over the health and well being of their children and themselves is just really dodgy thinking.

That single thought should be enough to stop this thread in its tracks, but it wont, because it's more important to attack trans people, than it is to raise awareness of things that will actually help women and girls, or elevate women and girls in any way whatsoever.

To be honest it screams of privilege.

Oh you're too funny!

Keep going, Joss - we see you.

okay then...

Agree with transtrendy that public toilets are a low priority and that too many organisations want to look as if they are supporting equality but don’t want to invest in refurbishing traditional stalls. The other day a friend and I went to a modern theatre. The number and location of loos was disgraceful. We actually used the men’s, encouraged by a very respectable looking older man in a check shirt who we were sure had entirely good intentions.

I used to wonder why organisations in favour of people using the loos that match their gender identity did not collaborate with disability organisations to campaign for investment in better loos for everyone. Is it because they don’t want to be identified with disability organisations? Is it because they don’t really believe in collaboration? Or, more cynically, it’s not really about about practicalities but feelings of power.

Most campaigning depends on creating coalitions uniting in a common interest. You can only go so far if you don’t appeal to hearts and minds.

I’m not intimidated by transmen as I don’t think they pass as men in the same way that trans women don’t pass as women.If a transman wants to use the male toilets I have no issue with that either.
Re the small numbers who start transition before puberty and pass better, still not a good enough reason for them to open up women’s spaces to all and sundry.

So, the answe is straightforward, some of the space in men’s loos need to be appropriated for unisex provision for trans people and others.

I used to wonder why organisations in favour of people using the loos that match their gender identity did not collaborate with disability organisations to campaign for investment in better loos for everyone.

I could hazard a guess...

Well that was before I came here DickkerrLadies

Won’t someone think of the children 🙏

Not sure what the solution is. I really don't have a problem with trans women using the ladies loos if they're genuine. But how do you know if they're genuinely trans women?

Self ID is a big problem because then a trans woman wouldn't even have to dress like the women gender stereotype (they could just claim that they identify as a woman) but would still be entitled to use the female toilets. This doesn't sit right with me. Which is why I think we have ended up with unisex toilets.. because no one wants to decide who should be allowed to use which toilet.

I dislike unisex toilets, especially if they're open to the public. Office unisex toilets aren't usually too bad. Public toilets (both men's and women's) are messier than non public toilets. Some people (both men and women) seem to think that they don't have to wee neatly in public toilets as someone will clean up after them. From personal experience I would say that men are messier. In my opinion women understand that if they are messy (ie wee on seat) other women will be affected as they will need to wipe it up before they can sit down. But (again imo) men don't care. If the seat is messy they don't need to touch it to urinate. If the floor is messy they don't need to stand in it.. they can take a step back and aim, probably creating more mess in the process. Yes I know NAMALT but there are definitely men that are like this, more so than women, IMO.

As a bloke, I'm not keen on the gents becoming unisex tbh. I don't want women potentially walking in whilst I'm at the urinal with my bits out.

As a bloke, I'm not keen on the gents becoming unisex tbh. I don't want women potentially walking in whilst I'm at the urinal with my bits out.

Funny that, we don't men with their cocks out in our toilets and changing rooms, yet that's what's happening.

But both my partner and I agree that toilets are really pretty low down the scale on the list of important issues right now. I'd rather critical services be focused on. Life and death matters.

But how do you know if they're genuinely trans women?

And what does it mean to be genuine? What makes a 'genuine' trans woman less risk than any other male? And I know some really nice males!

Anyway, it's not totally true that toilets are low priority - it's women that are low priority. Actual, cunty type women.

Toilets are clearly a high priority for those organisations wanting to force unisex facilities in an attempt to tick off a box saying they are inclusive or because who knows who Phillip Bunce might decide to turn up as today.

I was talking more about critical services. Don't want women dying in childbirth etc or people dying due to cuts in emergency services because the money's being spent on toilets.

Good for you.

It's possible for both things to be tackled.

I don't want women and children being sexually assaulted in what should be women-only spaces.

And as you're 'a bloke' you don't think it's not your place to come onto a board for women's rights and tell us what we should be prioritising?

Well Daily if you think loos don’t matter, you can tell all the other blokes out there that the men’s signs are going to be changed to unisex. Won’t cost much, easy enough to draw on the doors with a marker pen .
Ta da, thanks to Daily ( & partner 💝) we’ll now have unisex and women’s . You are a 💫.

As a bloke, I'm not keen on the gents becoming unisex tbh. I don't want women potentially walking in whilst I'm at the urinal with my bits out

Hahahahahahahahahaha...I'm crying here....oh my god...and no hint of irony either

As a woman, I'm not keen on the women's becoming unisex, tbh. But as a woman, it seems I have no say in the matter.