Boohoo the poor menz: a BBC report on why men's feelings should be equal to women's in the abortion debate

[ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49240582

"Men are usually involved in an abortion in one of four ways, all of which can leave men traumatised when they come to reflect afterwards on their roles, say those running counselling groups for post-abortive men. Sometimes men coerce a woman into having an abortion against her will; others say they will support the woman's decision either way, while steering that decision toward abortion. Some men find out about the abortion for the first time after the fact, or the abortion goes ahead against their wishes."

Speaking as someone who was coerced into an abortion I didn't want, I couldn't give a fuck how traumatic it might be for him to later "reflect" on his actions. One day he'd be saying it was all my choice and he'd support me no matter what, the next day he'd be making plans to move country if I had the baby, the next he'd be threatening to use his contacts at social services to have the baby removed from me and saying he'd take full custody if I went ahead, then the next day he'd be bringing me gifts and begging me not to terminate. Shockingly that was quite a lot to cope with whilst also studying full time and experiencing such extreme morning sickness I could hardly think. Shockingly I decided that wasn't an environment I could justify bringing a child into. When I went for the surgery, because I was 11 weeks by the time I decided, he begged to be allowed to come with me, then never showed up because he decided to go shopping for a new BMW instead. I never heard from him again, but I lost the next 3 years of my life to severe depression over the guilt and regret I felt. I seriously and frequently considered suicide. I engaged in very high risk sexual behaviour in the hope of contracting some terrible STD which I felt was what I deserved. I went to the doctor several times but was rejected for help each time and told to basically get over it as it was "my choice". I was offered a single counselling session by the NHS with a woman who told me she "only really knew about miscarriages" and suggested I just make a list of pros and cons to look at when I felt sad. Ultimately I dropped out of university because the course material focused often on pregnancy which I found too upsetting. Many years later I now have 2 children but I still cry to think of the one who isn't here. So I don't give a shiny fuck how the man who got me pregnant feels now.

At the same time another friend I knew became pregnant by a man who was abusive to her but for religious reasons didn't want her to terminate. He would turn up to her house in the middle of the night screaming at her that she was a murderer. He made her life a living hell, but because of her termination she was able to finish her degree, leave that relationship, and is now happily married and professionally successful. So I don't give a flying fuck how the guy that got her pregnant feels now either.

""Men are meant to be protectors, so there is a sense of failure - failing to protect the mother and the unborn child, failing to be responsible," says 61-year-old Chuck Raymond, whose 18-year-old girlfriend had an abortion in the late 70s when he was a teenager."

I don't give a fuck, Chuck.

"He likens the mental and emotional anguish that can follow an abortion to battlefield post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)."

Post abortion stress syndrome isn't even a recognised condition for women yet, you know, the people actually trying to make the life changing decision in the midst of morning sickness, social pressure, and often male coercive control. The ones who actually have to choose between giving birth and raising a child, or going through an often traumatic medical procedure. And I don't believe for a second that these poor "traumatised" men actually wanted to raise the baby themselves, it's all about not being able to control the woman.

"It's changing now, men are fed up," Ms Bonopartis says. "Men had bought into how they have no say in this and that if they speak out, they are against women, but now the impact is being felt by more and more of them as the repercussions of 45 years of abortion are being seen."

FUCK. OFF.

FUCK OFF FUCK OFF FUCK OFF

I don't care if men are fed up. I don't care how sad they are, or if they feel emasculated by not being able to control women, or if they feel like being made to pay child support somehow gives them part shares in women's bodies, or if they think that they are the natural protectors of children and women (despite being their number one killers) and should therefore be allowed to "protect" a fetus by forcing it to be born to an unwilling mother when 9/10 times they have no intention of caring for it themselves. I don't give a single fuck and I am so angry that the BBC has run this "sympathetic" article which basically says men should be allowed to have a say in women's medical care. Men can state their preference for an outcome, fine, and they're allowed to be upset if that preference isn't followed, but they have no right, not now and not ever, to expect their preference to be given equal weight to a woman's.

So, fuck off BBC. Fuck off Alabama. Fuck off all pro forced birth people but especially pro forced birth men. Fuck off to my ex and to my friends ex, and to the exes of all the equally traumatised women I met in the one solitary non religious (i.e you need forgiveness) post abortion support group I was able to eventually find online because no one gives enough of a shit to form one in real life on behalf of women. Fuck off to anyone who thinks the decision over what happens to a woman's body should be in the hands of anyone but the woman herself. Fuckity fucking fuck off.

Women's bodies are public property. Everyone owns women's bodies except the women themselves.

Sorry - meant to add that’s what it feels like. Even when determining laws, and who /what a woman is it’s decided by men.

I personally agreed with the article. It takes two to make a baby, man and woman. It’s not just the woman’s baby, it’s the man’s too. He should have some say about abortion. Men do have feelings as well and abortion/fatherhood can be as traumatic to them as to women. And, the comments about don’t have piv sex and use contraception ignore the facts that contraception fails...plus it is the exact same argument pro-lifers make about abstinence and don’t spread your legs if you don’t want to get pregnant.

The only reason PTSD for women post abortion is not recognised is because of the pro-abortionists claiming its existence is merely pro-life propaganda designed to scare women away from having abortions. It exists alright but being swept under the rug for political purposes.

I understand the OP has good reason to give zero fucks about the father of her baby that she aborted, but it is blatant sexism to then extrapolate her experience and apply that to ALL men.

But Doomsday what does ‘some say’ mean? If father has a say (ie has the right to decide whether mother has abortion) then that removes bodily autonomy from the mother and can lead to someone being forced to give birth or being forced to abort the baby. Any other ‘say’ is just an opinion and not the right to decide, which is no different to what men have now. They can be upset about it but the decision is the woman’s because it is her body.

I get the takes two to tango but a teaspoonful of sperm is not a baby. The baby is grown by the woman in her body and ejaculating doesn’t provide the right to decide what someone else does to her body.

So are you in fact suggesting that the woman’s bodily autonomy is removed? Or are you saying that men should be allowed an opinion? If it’s the latter, they already have the right to an opinion, as does everyone, including pro-lifers. They can opine all they like and indeed they do.

It’s not just the woman’s baby, it’s the man’s too. He should have some say about abortion. Men do have feelings as well and abortion/fatherhood can be as traumatic to them as to women.

It is only the women’s body though, it’s not a baby until it’s born and that’s when the parental rights of a man begin. Suggesting abortion is traumatic to someone not actually experiencing it is just misogynistic and wrong.

Nobody should get a say over it but the woman who is expected to carry it. Anything else is the loss of bodily autonomy.

Suggesting it is just as traumatic. I don’t think it can actually be ‘traumatic’ for a man. Distressing or sad. Not traumatic.

I personally agreed with the article. It takes two to make a baby, man and woman. It’s not just the woman’s baby, it’s the man’s too.

So he should have a say if the woman wants to keep the baby too and he doesn't?
Because it works both ways. You give them rights over the unborn baby/woman's body the have full rights. To stop an abortion or coerce a woman into having one.

And make no mistake by "having a say" what they mean is rights,supported by case law. This is what it's all about.

Yeah the ‘just as traumatic’ comment displays that the person saying it doesn’t have the faintest clue. It’s like men who sincerely believe that them having a bad cold or something is worse than childbirth. They just don’t get it and never will, which is why I think they should basically get no say in deciding the laws on abortion and absolutely no say in whether their partner has an abortion. Any decent man would support whatever their partner wanted to do with her body. They are only asking for this because they want the right to force her to do something she doesn’t want.

I was shocked by this article. And the last feature piece they did on US abortion was about men as well! I wrote to the BBC to complain. Do you remember how they refused to provide information about abortion after Call The Midwife on their Actionline because it was too “controversial”? They backed down after lots of complaints. Hope this is a clicky link.

ssl.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/?lang=en&reset=&uid=881114134

There’s no such thing as giving men “some say” about a woman’s choice to have an abortion.

Men can have feelings about it, sure. But those feelings don’t create any kinds of rights over another human’s bodily autonomy. You can’t give other people any of it, or it isn’t autonomy any more. It’s not pie, you can’t share it.

Women’s biology: pissing men off since the dawn of time. It doesn’t matter if you frame your urge to control women through religion or through your mighty, uncontrollable Feelings, it’s all of a piece.

Of course men have feelings about abortion. They can feel traumatised, especially in the case of an unwanted abortion. BUT that doesn’t give them rights over a woman’s body. I think we should recognise and support men’s feelings but not expect them to confer legal rights over the woman’s choice.

Caucho You may be interested in Vasalgel.

DoomsdayCult The only person who has a say in pregnancy decisions is the woman who is pregnant. Two people commit an act that creates a living thing but only one of the people is using her body to provide life support to that living thing. The person providing life support should be the only one making decisions about whether to continue or desist from providing life support. She's a person with bodily autonomy, not a walking incubator.

That both parties may have opinions and strong feelings about this is understandable, expected even, however feelings must not be used to deprive women of their legal and moral rights.Men who wish to avoid being hurt by a woman aborting an embryo that he co-created always have the option of refusing to have sex with women. Such men may also wish to support Vasalgel's safety testing, to give themselves more options to avoid fathering an unwanted pregnancy.

I fully support the rights of both sexes to use their own bodies to prevent pregnancies.

It is possible to have sex without piv

I know this is a wild and crazy point but it's true

No one has to stick their penis in a vagina

Also condoms are v reliable if used correctly

“Men who wish to avoid being hurt by a woman aborting an embryo that he co-created always have the option of refusing to have sex with women.“
This is just as intolerant as pro-lifers telling women if they want to avoid pregnancy, they should just be celibate. Can you not see that your argument is exactly the same kind of hateful non solution?

“Also condoms are v reliable if used correctly“

If used perfectly, 20 in 100 women will still get pregnant. Men have very little methods of birth control and none of them are what I would call “very reliable”

“Suggesting abortion is traumatic to someone not actually experiencing it is just misogynistic and wrong. ”

And yet many medical staff who perform abortions experience trauma and end up switching career fields. And yet police and prosecutors who deal with child abusers and rapists experience PTSD from viewing images of child rape and seeing scenes of tragedy. Even though they are not “experiencing” the actions first hand. And yet, even journalists covering war atrocities happening in Yemen from London (not even going to the war zones) experience trauma and develop PTSD from their work. I suggest you have a more open mind about how trauma and PTSD develops.

'If used perfectly, 20 in 100 women will still get pregnant.'

Link please I understood 97% reliable, you say 80%, are you trying to put women on mn off condoms what on earth is your angle.

Also, are you really equating a woman having an abortion to a man raping a child?

Additionally, you see' you don't have to have piv to have sex ' as being the same as' shut your legs? '. What a narrow view of sex. Maybe you need to get some tips. You seem like one of those men who says' how do lesbians have sex '. Piv is all that counts is such a damaging, patriarchal narrative.

And finally, please tell us what you mean in practice when you say mens opinions should be taken into account.

@Pota2
“But Doomsday what does ‘some say’ mean?”
This is a very good question.

By “some say” I think men should be encouraged to express whether they are in favour of or against their partner having an abortion, to that partner. Currently, men are told the only acceptable response is “whatever you decide dear”. They are not permitted to express a desire one way or the other. They should be encouraged to discuss with their partner different scenarios- from jointly raising child, to single mum raising child, to single dad raising child to adopting to abortion.

Secondly, I think both man and woman, being equal, have the right to veto motherhood or fatherhood. This means if the mother does not want the baby, she has an incontestable right to abortion regardless of whether the father wants the baby or not. However, it also means that if the mother wants to keep the baby, the father should also have the right to veto fatherhood and should not legally be required to pay child maintenance. As women have bodily autonomy and cannot be expected to carry a baby to term at the behest of another neither should the man’s bodily autonomy be infringed upon whereby he must pay a % of his earnings made by his body over the next 18yrs against his wishes. (This would also apply to any frozen embryos that a woman after splitting with her partner might want to use).

That’s my perspective. I think if women have rights, and are equal to men, then so do men have rights. Currently, we have only had legal abortions for 45yrs and the distribution of rights is not equal as of yet. This is a human issue, not just a woman’s issue. Men should have some say in whether they are to become a father or not.

I suggest you have a more open mind about how trauma and PTSD develops

I don’t need suggestions from someone that displays misogyny thanks. What I corrected in that statement was your words, which were as traumatic. It is gross to compare what a patient endures to what someone not even present does. It is also disingenuous to then give examples not relevant to who we were talking about, fathers, not medical professionals who perform them. Again, they won’t be as traumatised because it isn’t their body, they’ll have a different experience. It’s quite clear you’re anti abortion, so we won’t agree on much.

'Secondly, I think both man and woman, being equal, have the right to veto motherhood or fatherhood. This means if the mother does not want the baby, she has an incontestable right to abortion regardless of whether the father wants the baby or not'

Equal would mean abortion either way.

If she doesn't want it or if he doesnt want it.

Having no child is not the same as having a child that you don't support and don't see. The child still exists.

These are obviously not equal.

Equal is if either party doesn't want a baby then it must be aborted.

However, it also means that if the mother wants to keep the baby, the father should also have the right to veto fatherhood and should not legally be required to pay child maintenance. As women have bodily autonomy and cannot be expected to carry a baby to term at the behest of another neither should the man’s bodily autonomy be infringed upon whereby he must pay a % of his earnings made by his body over the next 18yrs against his wishes. (This would also apply to any frozen embryos that a woman after splitting with her partner might want to use).

This is such a grotesque comment. Really it is.
So if women won’t abort at the man’s say-so, then he has no financial responsibility? Despite being there at conception. So it is ABSOLUTELY coercive control, punishment if you don’t abort. Just gross.

Men and women will not be equal when it comes to children because we do not perform the same roles. Men can’t get pregnant or give birth. Your entire position is very unintelligent.

Women want liberation FYI. Equal rights over women’s bodies is misogyny 101.

I’m so sick of MN allowing MRA’s here...

This is just as intolerant as pro-lifers telling women if they want to avoid pregnancy, they should just be celibate. Can you not see that your argument is exactly the same kind of hateful non solution?

Actually, if women don't want to risk having to choose between birth and abortion, they absolutely should refrain from having sex with men! I was taught at school about some 15 or so contraceptives and the midwife teaching us still said that abstinence was the only sure-fire way to avoid pregnancy. Pro-lifers are trying to misuse that argument to remove the abortion choice, a red herring that I see straight through. It's not "hateful" neither is it a "non solution", and you could only see it as such if you thought you have a right to put your dick in a woman's body. Congratulations, you've just shown your true colours as a MPA who thinks he has a right to sex.

Women have been campaigning for decades for the right to refuse sex with men, including our husbands. We have campaigned for decades for the right of girls to be free from child marriage and rape, for the age of consent to be high enough to protect girls from predators. We have campaigned for decades for the rights of lesbians to say no to males.

Sex is not a right. You have at least one hand (otherwise how are you typing?), use it if orgasms are that important to you.

Seriously, how entitled and ignorant of women's bodies do you have to be to think that not getting your dick wet is exactly as bad as going through an abortion procedure or being forced to continue a pregnancy.and give birth? That is fundamentally the attitude underpinning this absurd belief that not having sex is equivalent to any pregnancy outcome.

@Fraggling
Sorry, I mixed up real life rate of condoms which is 85% with the unrealistic perfect use which is 98%.
But since no one can possibly use condoms perfect, my mis-remembered of 20 in 100 is not far off the actual 15 in 100.
Point still stands.

Yes, I am quite aware that other types of sex exist other than piv sex. But consider please the following, transmission of STDs is much more likely through anal. Many men and women also do not like anal sex and should not be forced to engage in a type of sex they do not like out of fear of pregnancy. How would you advise a poster on here who said their partner only wanted anal because of fear of pregnancy? Yeah? It’s not really a solution to put a big old X over piv sex is it?

No, I was not comparing abortions to child rape. Nice try to deflect though. Read closer. I was giving examples of ways in which people have and can develop PTSD just by seeing trauma happening to strangers much less the suffering of a lived partner and death of a potential child of your own.

Men have plenty of say on what women do with their bodies.

@bd67th
“Congratulations, you've just shown your true colours as a MPA who thinks he has a right to sex.”

Please don’t misgender me. I am a woman.
Right to sex is a completely different topic from right to choose motherhood or fatherhood.