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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transsexual women face erasure

999 replies

joannegosling2 · 16/08/2019 22:45

It's a fine state of affairs isn't it?

Please - before the administrators axe this post, at least hear me out.

August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by feminists, not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of feminism on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom feminists have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain feminist agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to feminist insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the feminists treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe feminists have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many feminists seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Feminists can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now.

OP posts:
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Detroitin68 · 19/08/2019 17:21

Seals are indeed penguin rapists according to the national geographic show I saw a while back. Dolphins are creepy.

It's somehow heartening to see all the Joni fans out there, playing her music. She is magnificent.

Wolf are wonderful, and rightly careful to avoid infiltration. However their process for joining wants names, location etc. Right now I don't give that information to anyone. Perhaps ill just write outlining my experience. They seem to be aware of issues in one of the states involved.

I'm making my way over to spinster. I figured I'd need a new burner email for it.

I appreciate the sistership. The conversations with people who were meant to understand and help, had taken a very unpleasant tone.

I've accepted ill probably have to rebuild life in middle age, alone without help. Mr Charming can go whistle for a divorce if the only way to do so is for me to accept no pension, no property after decades of abuse. Ill remain married and away from him, and wait it out.
Meanwhile dear Joni nailed it.. great call Nettie434!

^Beauty and madness to be praised
Cause it is not easy to be brave
To walk around in so much need
To carry the weight of all that greed
Dressed in stolen clothes she stands^

We want our stolen rights and spaces back. They can keep the damn clothes.

Detroitin68 · 19/08/2019 17:33

I thought the entire world had gone insane. Thank you all so much!

womanaf · 19/08/2019 17:37

We want our stolen rights and spaces back. They can keep the damn clothes.

🏆🏆🏆

Detroit, so sorry for the position you’re in, you sound formidable, I hope you feel it. 💐💐💐

Michelleoftheresistance · 19/08/2019 17:40

There's a bastion of sanity and a random episode of animal planet available here whenever you need it Detroit Flowers

Detroitin68 · 19/08/2019 17:55

I'm fine. I had a very rough few months back there. I had driven quite a ways (over 500 miles) to find men in the shelter. Using gas, tires and energy. I didn't think to ask.

Calling dozens of shelters across a three states radius to find that while I was not watching men had taken away xx only shelter places.

Ending up having sad conversations in the tone of an embattled biology teacher...deciding that I'd be able to tolerate post bottom surgery individuals in a space ild sleep in, while resenting making that choice.

I felt so let down by other women.

Then the fear set in. I figured I had better shut my damn mouth and stop asking for help, or asking policy questions before I got in legal trouble for having boundaries and not accepting twaw.

I'm absolutely safe. I know what I'm doing for the next week, and have space to think.

birdsdestiny · 19/08/2019 17:56

I was talking about this to a farmer the other day (not about dolphin sex, that would be odd obviously) but about animal behaviour and according to them ducks behave in a similar fashion, gangs of male ducks frequently have to be removed from the female duck.

birdsdestiny · 19/08/2019 17:57

Dear god sorry Detroit, horrible cross post.

Detroitin68 · 19/08/2019 19:25

Absolutely no need to apologise. I always suspected ducks might be in the same creepy category as dolphins, and am glad I now know not to feed em.

Flowers
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 19/08/2019 19:34

Sisterhood is really, really powerful. The one bright light in this madness is the women I've met because of it. They've changed my life.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 19/08/2019 20:15

Big Sigh. I assume it’s CBBC as in Children’s BBC and not some Canadian Broadcasting Company. Flippin ferret.

Transsexual women face erasure
StopThePlanet · 19/08/2019 22:04

Detroitin68

How would xy people be kept out of these spaces, legally?

Hiya, I'm in the US - everybody in shelters/services seems to have lost their minds here.

Our federal law "protects" a list of classes - none of which have anything to do with gender ID or gender reassignment.

Our protected classes currently are:

Race.
Color.
Religion or creed.
National origin or ancestry.
Sex.
Age.
Physical or mental disability.
Veteran status.
Genetic information.
Citizenship.

Technically you could challenge a shelter in a state that does not have gender ID or gender assignment in their state constitution/amendments or other legislature. Legally, every shelter in the US could (and should) house women independent of any man regardless of "gender" but it appears they are all genuflecting at the altar of trans and give the excuse that "if they don't disclose we don't know". But none of that will help you today or tomorrow or next year.

Because I work(-ed past tense as of today) with a prominent DV charity here I thought perhaps I could help - like bring you here where you could be isolated with other women and feel safe to rebuild your life. I called the CEO to discuss the possibility - the cognitive dissonance (re: TW, they updated resources to be "inclusive" in housing since my last review) was so heavy that after 15yrs of supporting them I decided I couldn't support them anymore. Before we got off the phone I canceled my most recent donation and resigned my position on the financial board.

I don't know where you are, but if you are anywhere near Florida I may be able to help you find a safer solution than your current living situation. No guarantees, no promises - just possibility. Feel free to PM me.

Beyond that, I want to congratulate you for removing yourself from a dangerous situation. No pity, no judgement, just compassion for you and your current circumstances. Hold on to your music and feel zero embarrassment - you deserve something that gives you joy.

Flowers
OrchidInTheSun · 19/08/2019 22:08

Why the fuck is CBBC making a film about teens with trans parents? There must be few and far between. Perhaps they can include that person Charlotte with the wife on the verge of tears and children with dead eyes repeating how much fun they're having now dad's so happy

Bespin · 19/08/2019 22:11

S1naidSucks

will fight to the death re weetabix.

also glad we are all learning about different animals, natural history is fascinating int it. can not wait for the OP to return and see where this thread as gone lol.

ForcedTeamingIsSoCreepy · 19/08/2019 22:48
ErrolTheDragon · 19/08/2019 23:07

I always suspected ducks might be in the same creepy category as dolphins

One of the more infamous Ignobel Prizes was won by this duck (or rather specifically, drake) related paper.

http://www.hetnatuurhistorisch.nl/fileadmin/userupload/documents-nmr/Publicaties/Deinsea/Deinseaa08/Deinsea8815Moelikerr_.pdf

Having mentioned the Ignobels, I'll also cite one which is of serious relevance when considering neuroimaging:

http://prefrontal.org/files/posters/Bennett-Salmon-2009.pdf

Ooh... perusing the list of winners I've found another which I'm surprised Ive never heard mentioned along with clownfish ...
Female Penis, Male Vagina, and Their Correlated Evolution Shock ... in a Cave InsectGrin

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982214003145

I expect there's some other gems to be mined.

https://improbable.com/ig/winners/#ig2000

SpamChaudFroid · 19/08/2019 23:13

Respectfully, why does the job fall to women to protect you from Erasure?

Themyscira · 19/08/2019 23:25

Spam h

5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

Detroitin68 · 19/08/2019 23:53

Stop the world, im so sorry you didn't feel able to carry on with your previous organization, and appreciate your protest. I'm a very long way from Florida. It's immensely touching you would think of me in this way. Thank you.

StopThePlanet · 20/08/2019 00:31

Detroitin68

Stop the world, im so sorry you didn't feel able to carry on with your previous organization, and appreciate your protest.

Ah m'dear it is okay - I have been volunteering and donating to them for a long time and today I found that the new mission fails to acknowledge the right to and need for sex segregated spaces. Shame on them, I will find another outlet to give to. Truly their loss.

I'm a very long way from Florida. It's immensely touching you would think of me in this way. Thank you.

No thanks necessary but you are beyond welcome. Flowers I hate it that you are far away... I really do. It pains me to know you are alone without material support.

I'm so pleased you found FWR - (most of) the women here are formidable, compassionate, and most importantly center women. Stay with us in FWR ❤️

Michelleoftheresistance · 20/08/2019 13:29

Respectfully, why does the job fall to women to protect you from Erasure?

Hamster00 · 20/08/2019 15:22

Ok, so I've come back to this thread a few days later.

Sat 17-Aug-19 18:29:08 I stated But transwomen / trans women / TW ARE men though.

Sat 17-Aug-19 18:39:10 I stated *I'm stating the fact as I am trans - and if I am censured by MN for saying so then clearly "I'm" not allowed to define myself accurately.

If I'm not censured then it begs the question why is women's speech being curtailed for saying so. If I'm allowed to.*

So "I" wasn't censured - so therefore I assume it's PERFECTLY ok for women to say it, because if not it's double standards in the extreme.

testing987654321 · 20/08/2019 15:32

If TW weren't men they couldn't be TW could they? They would just be women.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/08/2019 15:56

So "I" wasn't censured - so therefore I assume it's PERFECTLY ok for women to say it, because if not it's double standards in the extreme.

It would be. But it may be deemed one of those tricky 'context' things.

I would expect it's ok for a woman to say 'I agree with Hamster, who is a transwoman, that transwomen are men'.

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 20/08/2019 16:32

Update on the Hope Anchorage women's DV shelter case. http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3669395-Update-on-the-Hope-Anchorage-womens-DV-shelter-case

Thanks Detroit.

This decision in Anchorage may just help all shelters reclaim their services for women (the XX type).

birdsdestiny · 20/08/2019 16:55

I assume that ruling is very significant, it's a test case surely and now others can do the same.