Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Expelled from Girlguiding for putting safeguarding first

369 replies

KatieAlcock · 04/08/2019 07:04

Many of you will remember that Helen Watts and another Guider were expelled from Girlguiding last year. This was me - in Sept 2018 I had my membership of Guiding withdrawn for social media breaches (one FB post in a small private group) and refusing to follow Girlguiding policies on transgender members (saying I'd put safeguarding first, ahead of any policies).
I'm a longstanding Guider and Mumsnetter (naice ham, cancel the cheque, show us the diagram) but I'm anonymous for obvious reasons, generally. I'm coming out now to tell you this story.

I appealed and the former Chief Guide who held the appeal concluded that I had not breached social media guidelines (I should jolly well hope not given that 9 people saw my post!) but that I was still refusing to follow GG policy (I gave the same statement - safeguarding comes first).

My story is in the Mail on Sunday today (if this link doesn't work I'll put a clicky link in the next post).

Mail on Sunday link

I am taking GG to court on the grounds that they have discriminated against me because of my gender critical beliefs by investigating my actions when other Guiders who complain about things are not investigated.
I am asking them for a small amount in damages because though I have not lost any income, I have lost reputation and the investigation was stressful, as you can understand.
And I've asked to be reinstated, and for a full apology and statement that I did nothing wrong.

PS... I spent an hour with their professional photographer telling me "don't smile" and they go with the photo from camp with a big grin on my face, taken by my Guide??!

[Post edited by MNHQ]

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Original poster
KatieAlcock · 05/08/2019 08:34

I'm in the Telegraph this morning!

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/04/girl-guides-leader-sue-bosses-expelled-objecting-policy-admits/

And let's see if I have this code right, 4/5 isn't bad, eh?

OP posts:
Original poster
KatieAlcock · 05/08/2019 08:34

I'm in the Telegraph this morning!

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/04/girl-guides-leader-sue-bosses-expelled-objecting-policy-admits/

And let's see if I have this code right, 4/5 isn't bad, eh?

OP posts:
AutumnCrow · 05/08/2019 10:15

Reading this now.

I wish the reports would stress more the safeguarding issues around keeping stuff secret from parents.

2BthatUnnoticed · 05/08/2019 10:27

In case my earlier comment wasn’t clear - I’m not talking about trans people in general but about the JY scenario - someone who uses a trans ID for nefarious purposes.

Current GG policy does not seem to protect against that. And poor policies will attract the wrong people to exploit them, as happened with the Church and Boy Scouts.

2BthatUnnoticed · 05/08/2019 10:29

And I agree - the real concern is safeguarding not “GC beliefs”, for goodness sakes (no disrespect to your lawyers Katie, who would just framing it in terms of the law available, of course!).

FormerMediocreMale · 05/08/2019 10:45

Great article.

TeenTimesTwo · 05/08/2019 13:24

Good article.
Did you know that 98% is very, very nearly 100%?

LangCleg · 05/08/2019 13:26

And let's see if I have this code right, 4/5 isn't bad, eh?

4.914/5 is even more impressive.

I enjoy a bit of arithmetic talk.

TeenTimesTwo · 05/08/2019 14:17

WhooHoo.

zebrasdontwearbras · 05/08/2019 14:59

Fully support you, OP.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/08/2019 15:10

You're a shero, KatieAlcock. Star

truthisarevolutionaryact · 05/08/2019 15:15

Great achievement OP. And so quickly as well.

So many women and men support you.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/08/2019 15:18

It’s o k - happy to bump the post - no one takes mumsnet seriously outside of here anyway !

177,000 visitors to Feminism Chat every month would suggest otherwise, Butters83. That and the obsessional monitoring of this board by MRAs/TRAs.

Trans women are women Trans women are women Trans women are women Trans women are women Trans women are women

Bizarre post. Bizarre punctuation for that matter.

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 05/08/2019 15:19

A new number you may care to roll around - 9% (which sounds worse but is better really).

OP posts:
barelove · 05/08/2019 15:19

This is such good news. We need this court case to raise awareness of the madness and danger that is self id and allowing male bodied people into female only spaces. The knock on effect of this could positively affect the rights of all women to all of our single sex spaces.

Thank you Katie for your courage in standing up for yourself, your daughter and all women. Amazing Flowers

NKFell · 05/08/2019 16:35

Thank you Katie. I used to love myself Guides and was looking forward to my daughter progressing through and having so much fun but these changes frighten me and it's so important to challenge them so again, thank you!

Lordamighty · 05/08/2019 16:46

This is such an important case. The Girl Guide Association seem to have taken leave of their senses.

MrsFTigalar · 05/08/2019 17:00

Thank you Katie for this - I'm on maternity leave from my units at the moment but won't be going back. As a victim of sexual assault Guiding has always been my safe space and I've had many vulnerable girls and young women with similar experiences in my units over the years. Including male persons - whatever their presentation or opinion of themselves would be terribly upsetting. Not being able to discuss that with parents and carers who've put their trust in me to protect their children contravenes everything I understand about safeguarding and the most basic rule that you never keep secrets.

Also have GGUK who keep blithely declaring that this won't be a problem, seen any of our holiday houses - our local one was built in the 60s and only has shared bathroom s and showers. And that's not unusual.

Also I guide in close proximity to an Orthodox Jewish community in a conservative Christian church. Half my girls would have to leave.

I can't donate as I'm going through redundancy, but will help in any way I can.

Ornery · 05/08/2019 17:26

Torygraph is a bit wishy-washy, but all publicity better than none. As an FYI I have finally seen a spark of interest on Canadian shores - someone was asking about policy in a radfem group this morning. I did a small amount of stalking and tracked the source back to your dm link on twitter. Smile

Voice0fReason · 05/08/2019 20:23

10% is remarkable.
Great job Katie.

EndLegalFiction · 05/08/2019 21:45

Thank you Katie.

Everyone who works with children is obligated to respect good safeguarding practise and report any concerns. Your concerns are shared by every parent and you were fired for expressing concerns.

Whistleblowing is essential and brave.

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 06/08/2019 11:26

In the Telegraph again, for those that didn't spot it.

Can you comment on Telegraph articles?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/06/new-trans-orthodoxy-scaring-even-stalwart-organisations-silence/

OP posts:
AutumnCrow · 06/08/2019 12:53

That's behind a paywall, Katie, so can only see the first couple of paras. Anyone got a sharetoken thingy? It looks very interesting.

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 06/08/2019 13:26

I don't know about share tokens - I think I had a couple of free articles. But someone pasted the text on the other thread?

OP posts:
sashh · 06/08/2019 14:20

Autum

I copied and pasted it on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3658046-James-Kirkup-in-D-Telegraph-on-Katie-Alcock-and-Girl-Guides