To those who visit the board and believe in gender identity, what is your solution?

[Doyoumind]

I've been on Twitter again and seen another interesting thread but I'm not going to post it here so it can be picked apart.

Instead, although I know it's been asked before, to those of you who believe someone can be a woman without biologically being one I ask the question: What do you think should be put in place in law to provide safe spaces for trans people and women and what are you doing about it?

They 'believe' that TWAW and so they are catered for within existing female provision.

They believe women are wrong for contesting this.

That is their bottom line.

OP - What is a woman if not a descriptor of biological sex?
Genuinely interested.

There are some posters who believe TWANbiologicalW but also that woman is a feeling. They are the ones I was addressing. I'm not clear on what their solution is.

Woman is a descriptor of biological sex to me.

If they arrive I would appreciate them describing 'woman feeling' as it makes no sense to me. I am a woman. I feel like me. Because I am me.

Me too Likeothers. I don't genuinely expect them to engage though.

It's just I started a thread to discuss something that appeared in Twitter and they were very keen to come along and have their say on that thread. Instead of starting another thread about a Twitter thread I thought I would test whether they were open to sharing their own opinion rather than putting down someone else's.

I don't understand why someone born male would wish to live their lives presenting as a woman - or vice versa. But I don't have to understand it. I don't understand a lot of things people do, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to do them. Some people feel an imperative to live their lives as the opposite sex as the best way for them to have a chance of a happy life. I am not 'doing anything about it' except not being bothered by it. I don't support self ID or hormones or surgery for children, but as far as I am concerned anyone over the age of 18 can crack on and live their life in the way that feels right to them.

Tbf, you probably won't get a lot of engagement here because your post comes across like you would just dismiss their POV anyways.

OP, I feel you're missing the point slightly - the people who believe that TWAW don't think there is a problem to be solved in terms of the practicalities as they believe that TWAW and therefore should be treated like women in every respect.

They don't believe there is a practical issue to be solved - they believe there is a transphobia issue to be solved.

As you were on the thread, Navigator, you know the kind of views I'm referring to.

I have no problem whatsoever with someone 'living as a woman'. Go ahead. Knock yourself out but, as you say, self ID is the issue.

My question was about what to do wrt self ID, GRA if we have to think about those people's feelings when that could potentially open the door to female spaces for anyone who claims to be a woman in good faith or otherwise.

I'm not missing the point.

I know very well what most people on the trans side of the debate believe.

I'm trying to understand the views of specific posters who hold the view both that TW are and are not women. You don't need to tell me that doesn't make sense because I know it.

As you were on the thread, Navigator, you know the kind of views I'm referring to.

Without posting the Twitter thread, this is feeling a bit like a private conversation between a few people in the know - why expect genuine engagement about a thread that you're not prepared to share?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651924-This-is-a-good-thread-about-female-trans-allies?msgid=88981199 is the thread being referred to. I don't usually frequent FWR as I am not on board with prevailing orthodoxy, but joined in at the end of this thread and I am happy to share my views. I know most on FWR don't agree with them.

I think that most people won't see there being an issue until it personally affects them ie if they find themselves sharing swimming pool changing rooms with male bodied people, or find them in their women-only exercise group and feel compromised.

The issues with prisons and rape crisis centres are easy to dismiss as most people won't experience them.

It's like Brexit in a way - people frame the negative consequences as scaremongering until reality bites. Change only really happens when people's lives are negatively impacted en masse - that hasn't happened, yet.

Thanks Navigator.

Here's the MN thread. No problem sharing it at all.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651924-This-is-a-good-thread-about-female-trans-allies

I just didn't share it because there's 1000 posts to trawl through.

Within that thread there were some posters criticising the GC position without clarifying what their position was.

The thread got to 1000 posts because a chunk of it was spent picking apart what posters had said without stating a clear opinion or solution.

It's like Brexit in a way - people frame the negative consequences as scaremongering until reality bites. Change only really happens when people's lives are negatively impacted en masse - that hasn't happened, yet.

Hmm, negative aspects of Brexit have already hit. We're all 20% poorer due to the devaluation of the pound for a start. I certainly notice that being at the bottom end of the income scale. I also notice Brexit supporters blame it on everything and anything other than Brexit.

I suspect TWAW supporters will find similar ways to deflect the myriad negative consequences of their belief.

"negative aspects of Brexit have already hit. We're all 20% poorer due to the devaluation of the pound for a start"

I agree, but I think the impact needs to be more severe. I'ts got to be really in your face for Josephine public to get off her arse!

I don't understand why someone born male would wish to live their lives presenting as a woman - or vice versa. But I don't have to understand it. I don't understand a lot of things people do, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to do them. Some people feel an imperative to live their lives as the opposite sex as the best way for them to have a chance of a happy life. I am not 'doing anything about it' except not being bothered by it. I don't support self ID or hormones or surgery for children, but as far as I am concerned anyone over the age of 18 can crack on and live their life in the way that feels right to them.

I agree pretty much with everything in this post.

I don't understand how it feels and I can't describe the feeling of being a woman. I feel like me. I have no idea how it must feel to feel not at ease with who you are. I hate my body because it is ill. If someone gave me the chance to fix it I would. Is that how it feels to a trans gender person? I don't know but I am very happy to accept that they know themselves better than I do.

I don't know how the clash between rights can be solved. Both sex and being trans sexual are protected characteristics under the EA so both groups have legal protections. Logically I suppose providing 3rd spaces is a way to meet the needs of everyone.

My mantra is very much live and let live.

I wonder if it would take the sexual assault of a TW by a hetero biological male in a women only space before TW understand why women do not want biological males in women's only spaces.

Any thoughts on that?

I don't think TWAW or support self-ID and I think the impact current trans ideology has on children needs urgent change.

But I think individuals should generally be allowed to live their life as they wish. I think there are some ways in which some of the accommodations trans individuals seek could be met without negatively impacting women, and I think the GC narrative that all transwomen are AGP pervert MRA's sometimes stands in the way of genuine analysis of that impact.

I think there are some ways in which some of the accommodations trans individuals seek could be met without negatively impacting women

Brilliant Cohle. Care to elaborate?

Decomposing I could not agree more

the GC narrative that all transwomen are AGP pervert MRA's

That's not true though, is it? That's not the 'narrative', not on FWR at least.

But I think individuals should generally be allowed to live their life as they wish.

Nobody can truly live their life as they wish; there are rules around for example, murder, rape, theft, burglary, as one person's right must be taken into consideration over populations as a whole.

So what you are saying is that saying you are 'trans' gives you rights to live your life as you wish, and to hell with everyone else's rights?

Does a 14 year old teenage girl have the right not to see a penis in a female bathroom/changing room? Where are her rights?