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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

To those who visit the board and believe in gender identity, what is your solution?

442 replies

Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 13:21

I've been on Twitter again and seen another interesting thread but I'm not going to post it here so it can be picked apart.

Instead, although I know it's been asked before, to those of you who believe someone can be a woman without biologically being one I ask the question: What do you think should be put in place in law to provide safe spaces for trans people and women and what are you doing about it?

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6
RosesAndRaindrops · 01/08/2019 16:26

I don't think women are giving rights away, more just saying "don't speak for me" when some women claim that 'women' are uncomfortable with this that or the other

true that

RosesAndRaindrops · 01/08/2019 16:28

I don't understand how lesbian women feel as I am not attracted to women, but that doesn't mean I get to dismiss their feelings or call them wrong

good point
Who are we to say they're wrong or dismiss them, we're not them.
Just like in trans scenario

Theotherwayandbackagain · 01/08/2019 16:30

With all due respect, there are certainly posters on FWR taking the "all TWs are AGP pervert MRAs" line. I've lurked on here for months and months and I agree it's not the majority. However, sensible discussions have a tendency to get hijacked by a minority who clearly have a visceral hatred of transwomen. It always starts with "we don't have a problem with genuine transwomen who respect women's spaces and rights" and quickly degenerates into "they're perverts/ just doing it to gaslight women/ should be excluded from certain professions because being trans is a mental illness/ need to be told they're deluded and sick" etc.

Personally, I don't think transwomen are women in any meaningful sense. I also think any conflict of purported rights should be determined in favour of women's safety. However, I believe in treating transwomen with respect (except in specific cases where the person in question has shown themselves to be undeserving of respect) and I also believe in respecting women who are happy to share their particular spaces with transwomen and/or haven't made up their minds on gender issues yet (i.e. without all the sneering about anyone with a difference of opinion being a handmaiden or a man in disguise).

happydappy2 · 01/08/2019 16:31

At the moment women do have sex based rights....we now know that males with GRCs can access what we thought were women only spaces. Every time a woman says 'I don't care if I share a toilet/changing room with a male' it chinks away at the very real need for sex segregated spaces. I can't order you to say something you don't believe, but please consider women who really need single sex spaces....those who might be partially sighted/less able bodied/of a particular religion etc etc. Womens rights were hard fought for over many years, and could be lost in the blink of an eye unless we are very clear about why they are needed.

PetrolBastard · 01/08/2019 16:32

You don't want to understand what our solutions are. You want to belittle our point of view ad infinitum.

Biancadelrioisback · 01/08/2019 16:42

@happydappy2 but again, I think the women who are saying that they dont mind who they share the space with are saying this in response to many other women stating what women want. I don't want to be spoke for by men or women. If I'm asked honestly if I mind mixed sex spaces, I'll answer honestly.

happydappy2 · 01/08/2019 16:44

Bianca you might not mind mixed sex space....but what about 11 year old girls who don't get asked how they feel about mixed sex space?

On behalf of girls and women I really feel women owe it to each other to say we need single sex provision.

Just my POV.

Original poster
Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 16:46

Sorry, I've been busy doing work.

Yes, By your post a couple of pages ago was accurate. Thanks for summarising.

I'll try and catch up with the rest of the thread.

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Apollo440 · 01/08/2019 16:51

Oh do tell us one more time PetrolBastard what your solutions are because I don't think you have ever made it clear. Then we will all know and you can stop complaining.

Biancadelrioisback · 01/08/2019 16:53

Happy dont get me wrong, I respect everyone's right to single sexed spaces. It was my decision at work whether to make the toilets in our new build office single or unisex. Ultimately, I knew that I personally wouldn't mind either way, however because I knew that some women do mind, I made the decision to make them single sexed.
When my bosses asked me honestly my opinion, I gave it. I won't be told I cannot voice my opinion by men or women. But that didn't change the decision I made.

Original poster
Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 16:55

My view is certainly not that all TW are perverts. However I do think that without doubt, and as evidenced, there are men who claim to be trans and likely aren't really (although by whose standards can I judge because the rule is anyone who says they are is) and such men will use any opportunity open to them for wrongdoing. We can't afford loopholes in the system that can be exploited.

I use changing rooms with open showers and no cubicles in site. I have a crap body but am not ashamed to stroll around naked there. There are some women who are obviously uncomfortable in that environment to start off with. To put a penis in that space is totally unacceptable.

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Biancadelrioisback · 01/08/2019 17:02

What about trans people who have had gender reassignment surgery? Would they still be counted as 'a penis'?

PetrolBastard · 01/08/2019 17:07

It doesn't matter how much surgery someone has had nor how long they've been living as a woman. Apparently we're all supposed to be righteously pushing them into the men's toilet and then high fiving each other.

Original poster
Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 17:08

If there's no penis, there's no penis. Transsexuals aren't an issue for me personally. They aren't biologically women but I have no problem with them. I know some people disagree with that but I don't feel they are a threat.

We all know that the vast majority of TW haven't had surgery and many don't intend to.

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DickKerrLadies · 01/08/2019 17:11

DickKerrLadies I don't have the answer to that, but their may be as many different answers as there are trans people. We don't always understand how other people feel and it may not always make sense to us, but that is OK for me, I am sure the way I feel won't always make sense to other people.

Thanks for trying to answer.

Can anyone else help me understand what makes transwomen women?

Biancadelrioisback · 01/08/2019 17:11

Do you know the reason why many trans people haven't had GRS?

LonginesPrime · 01/08/2019 17:12

Apparently we're all supposed to be righteously pushing them into the men's toilet and then high fiving each other

Isn't that just what men have done with the women's bathrooms?

Biancadelrioisback · 01/08/2019 17:13

DickKerr why don't you ask a transwoman? Like others, I am not one so I can't answer.

DickKerrLadies · 01/08/2019 17:15

Well, how do I know whether any man, trans or not, has a penis? We don't exclude men from female spaces because they have a penis, it's because they are men.

LonginesPrime · 01/08/2019 17:16

Who are we to say they're wrong or dismiss them, we're not them.
Just like in trans scenario

Raindrops, but lesbians don't go around telling straight women they're bigoted for refusing to date lesbians on the grounds of sexuality.

Whereas lesbians' sexuality and their right to assert their boundaries as same-sex attracted people is constantly under fire from TRAs who argue that women can have penises and lesbians who refuse to date trans women should at least try a penis first.

Original poster
Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 17:18

I know that many haven't had surgery because it's major surgery with significant impacts, waiting lists are long and resources are short.

However, that's a problem that's part of their 'condition'. It's unfortunate and I feel for those who do want to undergo a full transition and can't.

But deciding that means we allow them into women's spaces at the potential expense of women's safety is wrong because we can't separate those who would have surgery if they could from those who would not.

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DickKerrLadies · 01/08/2019 17:19

Biancadelrioisback It was a general question to the 'room'. I'm asking anyone reading or posting here, including transwomen.

Thanks for replying though, even if you don't have an answer.

Biancadelrioisback · 01/08/2019 17:22

Long stop generalising. Not all men 'push' men into female spaces and not all trans people call everyone else a bigot.

Original poster
Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 17:27

You're right, Bianca but unfortunately the loudest voices in the debate do shout bigot.

I think we can all agree that if TW didn't claim to be as much women as females born with female anatomy and chromosomes, we wouldn't have quite the level of toxicity in the debate we have now.

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DickKerrLadies · 01/08/2019 17:30

For some it's not just biology, there is a sense of female as well.

See, it's this I just don't get.

I've never had this. And if you want, you can say this is me refusing to accept it but I just do not recognise any 'sense' of being female. I never have. I've never thought "I feel female".

I mean, I 'know' I'm female because I have XX chromosomes and a menstrual cycle and have lactated but if anything it was something I 'noticed' rather than 'sensed' if that makes sense.

Like I said on the last thread, either I am a woman purely because of biology, or I'm trans.

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