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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To those who visit the board and believe in gender identity, what is your solution?

442 replies

Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 13:21

I've been on Twitter again and seen another interesting thread but I'm not going to post it here so it can be picked apart.

Instead, although I know it's been asked before, to those of you who believe someone can be a woman without biologically being one I ask the question: What do you think should be put in place in law to provide safe spaces for trans people and women and what are you doing about it?

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PetrolBastard · 01/08/2019 18:46

What difference does it make if I provide a comprehensive guide to you about what living as a woman is like (notwithstanding that you already know exactly what it is). How do you see that information resolving this issue for you?

TheBigBallOfOil · 01/08/2019 18:46

Xx chromosomes.
See how easy that was. You can put the essences back in the cupboard.

Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 18:47

Field - that's why I said it was my experience. I would say there's a tiny proportion of women who haven't experienced at least one of them though.

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Apollo440 · 01/08/2019 18:47

RosesAndRaindrops

How do you describe a feeling
Because it's not a feeling, it's the essence of me
..........
It can't be explained.
Doesn't mean it's not real though
_
And you expect that to be legislated in law? With criminal sanction against those who don't share this personal reality?

How about sticking with things that can actually be defined in reality.

Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 18:49

No Bag, not the chromosomes Shock Now we'll be on to DSDs.

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DickKerrLadies · 01/08/2019 18:50

Now people are disingenuously claiming that they don't know the difference between men and women. It's all just obfuscation

Yep, I'm just like whatever now

Confused I thought it was really complicated Roses?

Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 18:50
  • Big Grin
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RosesAndRaindrops · 01/08/2019 18:50

Xx chromosomes. See how easy that was

Erm, yes, but where exactly have I dismissed biology?
Haven't, have I?

DickKerrLadies · 01/08/2019 18:51

There are born women who haven’t done any of those things but still feel they are women.

But men will never do them.

TheBigBallOfOil · 01/08/2019 18:51

I really don’t know what you’re up to, matey. And I’m not convinced you do either.
Chromosomes work pretty well. I don’t think you’re improving on them, put it that way.

RosesAndRaindrops · 01/08/2019 18:51

What difference does it make if I provide a comprehensive guide to you about what living as a woman is like (notwithstanding that you already know exactly what it is). How do you see that information resolving this issue for you?

Exactly

Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 18:51

Do you use Twitter Roses?

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TheNavigator · 01/08/2019 18:52

I guess for trans people (and I am guessing because I don't know) it is about how they present and are perceived. Does it matter? Some people feel that they wish to live as if they were a member of the opposite sex and I have no problem with that. I don't have to define or dissect or demand because I am happy to accept that is how some people feel. I don't see why people feeling different to you is so difficult for some posters to grasp that they want the minutae of what that feeling is exactly. Feelings can't be defined exactly - poets, novelists and philosphers try but the best we have is mataphors.

bd67th · 01/08/2019 18:52

If someone is behaving in a pervy manner in a toilet or changing room of course you can get them removed

Assuming that you are an adult, you recognise the pervyness before it's too late, and there's someone in authority nearby to do the removing. Seriously, do all the public loos you use have an attendant present? The ones I frequent don't.

I was sexually-assaulted at school aged EIGHT, because two older boys waltzed in to the mixed changing room and I did not realise that they meant me harm until they had cornered me and it was far too late to escape or scream. You have to remember that CHILDREN also use toilets and changing rooms and may not have parents with them (e.g. at school). Children also need simple rules to follow to protect themselves, such as "if you see a man or teen boy(1) in the toilet, scream and run". This is in direct opposition to Stonewall/UWE/etc advice of "if you think someone's in the wrong loo, relax, they know better than you do".

This isn't a "moral panic", it's a reasoned fear that comes from recognising that males use their penises as weapons against females and force us to risk pregnancy. This is looking at Yaniv and Jess Bradley and Karen White and asking "how is an eight-year-old meant to know the difference between those predators and Rose of Dawn or Miranda Yardley or Seven Hex?" (the last two of whom have asked themselves similar questions and stopped using women's facilities Star Flowers Smile). This is accepting that there is a risk associated with letting unvetted male-bodied people into female spaces, asking "how many girls do we allow to be harmed as collateral damage for transwomen's validation?", and concluding that the only acceptable answer is zero.

I've concluded just now that "moral panic" is one of those "thought-terminating cliche" things we talked about last year, with the purpose of silencing a very specific target group, namely women concerned about safeguarding. It does this by the mechanism of shaming the target through the slurs of social conservatism in the word "moral", so very effective against social liberals as many gender non-conforming women are, and irrationality in the word "panic", so very effective against women, who know the root meaning of "hysteria" and are sick of being branded irrational.

We should always question the motives of those who would shame us and silence us for being concerned about safeguarding.

(1) I'm all in favour of boys under eightish using the ladies if they aren't with their dads. They are too small to threaten us and are at risk from men if they use the gents.

DickKerrLadies · 01/08/2019 18:53

What difference does it make if I provide a comprehensive guide to you about what living as a woman is like (notwithstanding that you already know exactly what it is). How do you see that information resolving this issue for you?

Well, as I mentioned up thread, if being a woman is not about biology, then I am not a woman so I must be trans.

So, how can I now live and present as a man?

Cloudyz7 · 01/08/2019 18:53

As someone who doesn't have an 'inner essence' I think that those who feel they have a 'gender identity' are those who are willing to accept and/or like the stereotypes associated with their sex. (Trans people preferring the stereotypes of the opposite sex obviously).

If you don't conform and/or reject those stereotypes, then your sense of self is based on your biological reality + personality.

Witchlight · 01/08/2019 18:54

I think it is a game of equality top-trumps gone wrong.

Eg If on a train a disabled person gets on, they have priority to the disabled seats. It doesn’t matter if someone with another protected characteristic thinks their feet hurt more than the disabled person. For a disabled seat, the disabled person trumps all.

If there is a scholarship based on someone’s race, they get the funding ahead of anyone else - even if they need it less.

If there is a space, segregated by sex for the use of males, or females, then trans people cannot use it, unless they qualify as the same biological sex. For all other purposes trans people can be treated as the sex they ID with - just not in the case where sex it the main consideration.

The problem is that we have the equivalent of a trans person with sore feet, insisting that they get to use the disabled seat, because they feel they need it more.

RosesAndRaindrops · 01/08/2019 18:55

I really don’t know what you’re up to, matey. And I’m not convinced you do either. Chromosomes work pretty well. I don’t think you’re improving on them, put it that way

Eesh.
In other words
I've said
Yes - woman, is biology
Yes, there's more to being a woman than biology for some

I'm not improving on chromosomes, why the insult as I have a different opinion?
I'm assuming the matey is either a patronising dig or insininuating I'm a bloke, meh whatever lol

TheBigBallOfOil · 01/08/2019 18:55

Feelings are great. Feel what you want. But don’t have the arrogance to claim your feelings should be the basis for changing legal and social arrangements which have been set up to cater for what’s actually real.

TheNavigator · 01/08/2019 18:56

I am not sure I agree with you Cloudyz7. I don't have a gender identity and certainly don't accept and like stereotypes, but I do accept other people may feel differently to me, and that is fine.

Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 18:57

It's fine to be different but for legislation we require a framework that can define what people are.

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FormerMediocreMale · 01/08/2019 18:58

Roses

You seem to be havong a circular arguement with yourself with this statement so how can we understand it?

No. I'm not reducing it to just looks.
If I'm biologically female, how else could I automatically live and present as a man? It comes down to looks in that sense as you just need to see threads on here about whether people "pass" or not.
Of course there's more to being a woman than just appearance.

Your answer to is it just appearance is not much more than yeah but, no but, yeah but

Fieldofgreycorn · 01/08/2019 18:58

Doyou, and some TW will have experienced sex harassment or discrimination because seen as a woman. But yes you are focusing on some of the biological aspects of being a woman.

RosesAndRaindrops · 01/08/2019 18:58

Do you use Twitter Roses?

Why?
I do have a Twitter account, yes
(I've never tweeted anything on this subject if that's what you're getting at)

TheBigBallOfOil · 01/08/2019 19:00

The trouble you’ve got, roses, is you can’t explain yourself. If you want people to accept there’s more to it than biology, you have to tell them what it is, and you can’t, without recourse to nonsense about essences and other things too nebulous to be explained.
If that’s meaningful to you, that’s your problem - but it’s not a basis for legal and social arrangements affecting everybody else.

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