To those who visit the board and believe in gender identity, what is your solution?

[Doyoumind]

I've been on Twitter again and seen another interesting thread but I'm not going to post it here so it can be picked apart.

Instead, although I know it's been asked before, to those of you who believe someone can be a woman without biologically being one I ask the question: What do you think should be put in place in law to provide safe spaces for trans people and women and what are you doing about it?

Brilliant Cohle. Care to elaborate?

Sure, things like calling transwomen transwomen (rather than TIM etc), increased provision of unisex sole-occupancy loos, permitting transwomen to access women's group where the organisers believe it's appropriate.

I think some GC feminists come at accommodations for trans individuals from the perspective that they must be shot down and analyse the risks to women accordingly.
And that's not to say that there aren't many areas where the risks are very real.

Nobody can truly live their life as they wish; there are rules around for example, murder, rape, theft, burglary, as one person's right must be taken into consideration over populations as a whole.

Yes I would think that goes without saying.

As I said "I think there are some ways in which some of the accommodations trans individuals seek could be met without negatively impacting women".

I'm not sure how it could have made it clearer that I don't think trans individuals rights should prevail over women's rights, just that I think there are occasions where they can co-exist.

So what you are saying is that saying you are 'trans' gives you rights to live your life as you wish, and to hell with everyone else's rights?

I don't think anyone has said that? Just that it is pointless to keep expecting people to justify why they feel a certain way in order that you can point out they are wrong to feel that way. People can feel differently to you and want to live their life differently to you and not be 'wrong' or 'right' - just living life in the way that is right for them. Of course we all have to obey the law and make accommodations to fit into society, no one group of people is exempt from that.

I think some people have missed the point of OPs thread a bit. There are a few regularish posters who don't believe that TWA biological W but do believe that there is such a thing as gender or gender identity which either does or does not align with your biological sex. These posters often claim that being a women is more than biology so even though W and TW aren't connected by biology, we are (or at least can sometimes be) connected by a shared gender/ gender identity which is what makes us all women.

Apologies if I've straw manned anyone there. I follow these posters comments with a great deal of interest as they are some of the only non trans people I've spoken to who seem to experience a gender/ gender identity, and I'm fascinate as to what this actually means.

Anyway, the discussion usually descends into a circular series of requests for definitions over "women", "female", "gender", "gender identity", and how these things can, should, or do interact. What does "woman" mean if it's not to do with biology or stereotypes? What is "gender" and in what way should we expect it to match our sex? Is it a metaphysical belief, like a soul? Why do some people seem to have one and others don't? These are very interesting and valid questions but since the posters n question are quite open about not having answers the conversation tends to go round and round without ever becoming productive.

My understanding of the OP is that she's hoping these posters, who seem to understand the problems of self ID and see that there is a conflict and need for debate, but who also (unlike GC posters) think that TW do have some reason to be considered women in some sense, will come on this thread with some suggestions for resolving the debate or moving it forward. Since they are potentially in a position to "see both sides" (since they are critical of self ID/transing children etc, but also believe in/ experience "gender"/"gender identity") this would be an interesting conversation to have.

Have I got that right?

I don't support self ID or hormones or surgery for children, but as far as I am concerned anyone over the age of 18 can crack on and live their life in the way that feels right to them.

I agree with this, TheNavigator, and I think that a lot of people on here do as well, so I think you're wrong to say that people here don't agree with your view. But I don't really understand this bit:

Some people feel an imperative to live their lives as the opposite sex as the best way for them to have a chance of a happy life.

What does it mean to 'live as the opposite sex'? I'm a woman. If I wanted to live as a man, how would I go about it?

[women who] do believe that there is such a thing as gender or gender identity which either does or does not align with your biological sex

These must be the actual 'cis' women the rest of us get lumped in with.

My understanding of the OP is that she's hoping these posters, who seem to understand the problems of self ID and see that there is a conflict and need for debate, but who also (unlike GC posters) think that TW do have some reason to be considered women in some sense, will come on this thread with some suggestions for resolving the debate or moving it forward.

Well, I'm sorry I don't understand the 'innate sense of womanhood bit', my point is we don't have to understand how other people feel, or expect it to be rational, in order to respect that they have a right to feel as they do, just as I have a right to feel as I do. As you say, it is circular to expect people to explain their feelings logically - that is why they are called feelings. I don't understand how lesbian women feel as I am not attracted to women, but that doesn't mean I get to dismiss their feelings or call them wrong. I feel the same about trans people. I don't expect them to have to explain themselves to me, I am not the arbiter of what is the 'right' way to feel - none of us are.

As Decomposing and TheNavigator have said, just because I don’t feel like my body doesn’t match who I am wrt gender doesn’t mean it’s not a genuine thing. I think trans people are well aware they’re not the biological sex they desire to be but that doesn’t mean they can’t live and be accepted as that sex. I don’t have a problem with sharing toilets or changing rooms with trans people - they’ve been using them for donkey’s years, well before the furore around the GRA consultation. I cannot relate to all this talk of ‘but what about changing a tampon? What if you saw a partially clothed man?’ I just don’t care. I really don’t give two hoots about the genitalia of the person in a cubicle next to me, and I resent how those arguments are presented as something that ALL women, and more to the point all rape victims (I am one) feel. That turns me off wanting to actually listen to any GC POV when people who feel that way have already decided they speak for me and/or I’m a handmaiden of the patriarchy. I actually think people are within their rights to say they want vagina-only spaces - when it starts to stray into suggestions that all trans people are a potential risk, that to me is transphobic. But I don’t feel women who are happy to share those spaces are given any kind of acceptance or respect from the GC crowd. Just belittlement and snide digs.

As a biological woman, the fact I have a uterus and vagina isn’t the centre of my womanhood and identity, so I accept that other people’s identity can centre around being female without having the physical attributes. That doesn’t mean I don’t also recognise how female biology can be used to oppress women. You can support that while also supporting trans people’s rights to be who they are. Just like you can support them while also recognising certain people such as JY are incredibly problematic and dangerous and don’t represent the trans population at large - there are a lot of trans people on twitter kicking off about Pink news supporting JY. Conflating people like that with the average trans person is reductive to say the least.

I don't understand how lesbian women feel as I am not attracted to women, but that doesn't mean I get to dismiss their feelings or call them wrong

But what if the lesbian is calling you wrong for not being willing to consider dating them?

As a biological woman, the fact I have a uterus and vagina isn’t the centre of my womanhood and identity

So what else is it that makes you a woman? Genuinely curious.

But what if the lesbian is calling you wrong for not being willing to consider dating them?

Well, they should respect my feelings as I respect theirs.

If transwomen know they are not female, what makes them women?

Honest question.

Cohle, nobody here is saying that “all TWs are AGP pervert MRAs”.
What we are saying is that if we allow self ID, there’s no way to stop the latter following the former straight into your changing room.
You will be confronted with an unwanted penis in your previously secure female space, which is already bad enough.
However, if it belongs to an AGP pervert it will be more threatening, upsetting and potentially dangerous, but you will still have no right to call security and have him removed - unless you want to be arrested yourself for a “transphobic hate crime”.
The only sensible and safe option is to maintain the status quo - separation by sex, not “gender identity” or nebulous “feelings” .

Who I suppose the fact I don’t have any disconnect between my body and my mind. Honestly, if I really think about it, I would say I feel more genderless than female. I don’t want children so anything typically female/womanly to do with motherhood just feels completely alien to me. I’d happily renounce my womb tomorrow, it just isn’t an important part of who I am. But like I said, I recognise how childbearing abilities have wider societal implications for women, including me, even though I don’t particularly want those abilities

DickKerrLadies I don't have the answer to that, but their may be as many different answers as there are trans people. We don't always understand how other people feel and it may not always make sense to us, but that is OK for me, I am sure the way I feel won't always make sense to other people.

Babdoc well that I think is a moral panic. If someone is behaving in a pervy manner in a toilet or changing room of course you can get them removed whether they’re biologically male/female or trans. Self-ID simply means simplifying the process by which people can get a gender recognition certificate, not carte blanche to act like a pervert because they say they’re female.

Same thread for the thousandth time! ‘Come and tell us your opinion so we can shoot you down by saying the same thing we say on every single other thread in FWR!’ What is the point?

I don't understand why what suits people who aren't women is an interesting topic for a feminist board, frankly.

"If someone is behaving in a pervy manner in a toilet or changing room of course you can get them removed"

Of course you can't! Men are experts at going right up to the line and being creepy without actually breaking any rules. You have met men, right?

I don't understand why what suits people who aren't women is an interesting topic for a feminist board, frankly.

I would agree with this. I don't usually post on FWR as most of the threads are about trans issues and I do not usually find them interesting or generally agree with the opinions expressed. What drew me into the thread about a tweet was the casual ageism & misogyny I perceived against young women, which is a topic that does interest me. I think I have attempted to start a thread on other feminist issues in the dim and distant past, but there wasn't much interest - it obviously wasn't a topic with mass appeal to most on FWR.

You can't see someone's gender identity especially when they are naked in a changing room.

If I were to see a be-penised person changing next to me at the gym, how do I know if they are a man who has an inner sense of womenlyness or a manly man who got lost or is up to no good?

Same thread for the thousandth time! ‘Come and tell us your opinion so we can shoot you down by saying the same thing we say on every single other thread in FWR!’ What is the point?

Exactly, I'm presuming I'm one of the ones referred to?
Why do it all again, it was literally on the thread that finished this morning, you want us all to jump on and go round again?
Why?

Lang I was thinking the same! The solution to which facilities males use, is really not a question females should have to consider.

Many have quite rightly though, said, not in our female only spaces.

And for every women who doesn't have a problem changing beside a bepenised person-women rights are not yours to give away, please consider those more vulnerable than yourself.

So what else is it that makes you a woman? Genuinely curious

That was on the thread mentioned upthread.
For some it's not just biology, there is a sense of female as well.
Nothing to do with personality, nothing to do with likes, or anything like that.
Some people won't accept that though which is it why we get the constant roundabout.

I don't think women are giving rights away, more just saying "don't speak for me" when some women claim that 'women' are uncomfortable with this that or the other.