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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

This is a good thread about female trans allies

999 replies

Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 16:00

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

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dodgeballchamp · 31/07/2019 01:24

Whatever you think of trans women the thread is misogynist. Where are all the ‘feminism is about choices’ advocates when it comes to this? How about respecting women who want to welcome trans women into their feminism? Disagree, fine. But don’t act like they haven’t considered their stance. How do you possibly know how anyone arrived at their chosen position within this topic?

OldCrone · 31/07/2019 01:29

How do you possibly know how anyone arrived at their chosen position within this topic?

We'll never know, because they won't discuss anything with us. I'd love to know how they have arrived at their position. Perhaps they could come on here and tell us. Don't hold your breath, though, because the usual response is along the lines of 'TWAW, no debate.' Sometimes followed by abuse and an expression of hope that all 'T*s' come to an unpleasant end.

Doyoumind · 31/07/2019 01:32

You have done the research Maniak didn't, OldCrone.

It's the kind of thing I see every day on Twitter. I'm not sure all posters on here are as up to speed as others. I am referring to you Roses as you scoffed at the idea of being transphobic.

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Doyoumind · 31/07/2019 01:35

Saying we're misogynistic because we don't agree with some people who happen to be women is as stupid as being told we are fascists.

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Doyoumind · 31/07/2019 01:39

dodgeball the thread was speculating on why it might be that they hold those views. That's what we're debating. We are giving our opinions on how it happened because we don't actually know. We aren't saying that's definitely how it is. We are speculating. It's different.

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2BthatUnnoticed · 31/07/2019 01:48

I respect women who identify with TW, and don’t personally want or need any specific female spaces. Their choice, right?

All I ask is that they, in turn, respect that some women do want and need female spaces. Like the Canadian beauticians who did not want to touch male genitalia.

“TWAW - no debate” and self-ID is enabling predatory males to abuse vulnerable women. How does the other side address that? Or are those vulnerable women just collateral damage, best ignored?

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 02:43

Seeing as you're all enjoying talking about a young woman so much, I thought I'd come and say hi.

As you've made so many judgements on me I thought I'd clear some things up. I'm an adult, not a child, with over 15 years of reading on feminist, gender and sexuality under my belt. I'm actually bisexual, so your comments implying my activism is about finding a man are pretty far off. I'm not sure what kind of world you live in where feminist and socialist activism appeases women to men but, it's certainly not the one I live in.

Now, I'm keen to know how exactly you think belittling my intelligence, my autonomy, my capacity and my looks is feminist. I find it fascinating you act with such a self righteous attitude towards me and other women like me because we don't hold the same opinion as you. Now, I happen to think I could have made it as an Instagram model should I be so inclined, but alas it just wasn't my cup of tea. I'm not interested in conforming to beauty standards or adhering to the male gaze, but I just love that your feminism, sorry your misogyny, pushes those expectations on me because you believe me to be a silly little girl who has allowed men to infiltrate my thoughts and do my thinking for me. I can assure you, that is certainly not the case. I'm especially interested to know how calling me a cow, or saying you'd like to call me a cow, is feminist.

How exactly do you think sharing threads attacking women's autonomy and erasing the existence of WOC who are pro-trans or trans themselves is furthering your cause? I'm keen to know why you think no one engages with you. I mean, I have a few ideas. I've engaged with the GC movement more times than I can count. Never a time has it ended well. I've either had to step away due to triggering lines of attack and questioning over assault and harrassment, block due to extensive levels of misogyny and sexism - from both GC men and women - or been blocked myself when I've provided evidence and reading for the stance I take. I admire any person who manages to hold conversations with the GC movement when often your response to anything is simply to just start calling cis women handmaidens (Atwood disagrees with your use, hate to break it to ya) or misgendering trans women. I'm just fresh out of ideas on how you believe nasty and personal attacks are the way forward to get people to side with you. Feel free to enlighten me on how any of those forum thread could be seen as helping get me on side, when you've done nothing but denigrate my character and looks.

I mean it really just stinks of a bunch of women who have nothing better to do than attack others who disagree with them really, doesn't it. Nowhere here have you actually made valid points - you've just used repackaged homophobia as "legitimate concerns". Trans hate crimes have gone up 81% in the past year you know, you claim to support trans rights yet I've never seen a single GC person ever post about how abhorrent and tragic that it. I have seen some celebrating it though....

My final point is this: the way you act is fundamental to how you get people on side. Demonstrating entirely anti-women and un-sisterly attitudes like you have on this thread gets no one on side. The trans women and men you are so keen to attack and misgender are the people who have shown up for me time and time again when I've been attacked by men online and in real life. They're not the people you should be afraid of and honestly it's sad to see women who should be raising awareness of the horrendous levels of violence against women by CIS men in this country instead choosing their time to enforce the patriachy with misogynistic arguments and produce repackaged and recycled bigoted attitudes towards people not like you. There really is no thread for trans people, they remain one of the most marginalised groups of people in our country, and it is genuinely sad to see where there should be solidarity instead there is hate and othering from a group of women whose privilege and entitlement means they perceive the fight for rights of one group as an infringement on theirs. If you ever stopped and looked and listened, you'd see how much trans people do to fight the patriachy, to fight sexism and misogyny, to stand against violence and assault, to reject racism and hatred and the rise of the far-right. But instead you're too engaged in your need to hate to see just how important the fight for trans rights is for women's rights and human rights, just how intrinsic and essential it is to tearing down the patriarchal structured for which we are all affected by.

I wish you a good evening and hope you take a little moment to reflect as to why it's not okay to judge, ridicule, belittle and patronise young women who don't agree with you. Goodnight.

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 02:52

Maybe you’d like to suggest why it is that particular demographics are likely to be pro trans, as you don’t agree with the perspective on here?

It seems to me that many gender critical women are in their forties, and many TRAs are in their twenties.

Handmaid isn’t a term invented by Atwood, obviously.

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 02:58

Also, you have publicised a picture of yourself at some public event holding an enormous sign saying TERFs are fash. Short for fascists. That does seem a rather grander demonstration of you hating other women than us questioning your motives on the internet.

I mean, I’m not actually comparing you to Mussolini.

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 02:59

Oh I don't know, maybe it's this little thing called progression. It's also a relatively nonsensical argument though, I know of many, many middle aged feminist women who support trans rights and aren't gender critical. When you actually step away from Mumsnet and the small groups you are a part of, you'd see just how wide the support is across age and race for trans rights and against the GC movement is within feminism and activism.

By the way, a correction, it's threat from trans people, not thread for trans people.

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 03:01

Whether you like to admit it or not, gender critical organisations are funded by the far right. There are numerous 4chan and 8chan threads with men infiltrating the GC movement. You're prescribing to a movement funded and infiltrated by the far-right, that's what you're enabling and upholding. So if the shoe fits 🤷🏻‍♀️

However it is the GC movement who have endlessly called me a Stazi, Hitler, Stalinist for the last 24H. Not to mention a btch, cnt, dck panderer, child, twt.....

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 03:03

By the way that event was Pride. A protest started by black trans women. A protest with which people of all ages marched under the banners of #LWithTheT and #BWithTheT. So.

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 03:04

But I’m not calling you those things.

You are calling TERFs fascists. On a massive sign.

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 03:06

And? That's my opinion. And that gives you all the right to sit here and judge, ridicule, belittle, patronise and insult my looks and intelligence does it? Very feminist.

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 03:07

So your argument is that there are more young people who are TRAs because young people are inherently more progressive, or because you have some evidence that we are in a period of history that is progressive?

Because either of those seem obviously untrue.

Goosefoot · 31/07/2019 03:08

Most of the women I talk to who think that people can change sex believe that they are born with a brain that is in some way feminised and it makes them feel like they are in the wrong body. They also believe that the scientific research absolutely supports this.

In some cases they are also simply people unable to think critically about the issue, or really any issue. They don't have the background knowledge nor do they know how to approach an idea from a critical perspective. usually they do not realise it though.

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 03:08

Did you actually read what I said or....? 🙄

Notice how you have no interest in acknowledging the lengthy attack filled with misogyny this whole thread has been on me....

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 03:09

Yes, it is your opinion that TERFs are fascists.

Unless you actually really like fascists, that would be a hateful thing to say.

So it’s rather hypocritical to accuse other women of being hateful.

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 03:10

If I am misunderstanding your point about progression Jenn, you could clarify it if you want a genuine discussion.

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 03:10

So no comment on the lengthy thread completely denigrating and personally attacking me, using misogyny and sexism against me then? Uhuh, I see. V feminist.

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 03:11

The comment on ages and races is right there. I'd try reading it past the first sentence...

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 03:14

You’ve written a very long post. It would take me hours to break it down by point by point, so I’m taking one small element as a starting point.

Which is that you don’t think it is okay for a women to act in a hateful way. I agree on that.

But then as you are wandering around holding a massive sign accusing people who would be very distressed to be called fascists fascists, it would seem that you are okay with being hateful.

2BthatUnnoticed · 31/07/2019 03:16

Welcome Jenn. I once stumbled on a thread about me (not on here) and it was super weird. I’m glad you came by.

FWIW I didn’t think the tweeter was saying anyone wasn’t insta worthy - just that they are not into the hours of faffing Insta demands, and would rather spend their time supporting worthy causes. Incidentally, I think all the women pictured look gorge, but think discussing their looks is a derail.

I genuinely, honestly do not hate anyone. I’m fairly new to this whole discussion and was fully “TWAW” until the de-funding of VRR... despite the two other centres in Vancouver already admitting TW.

I’ve worked in a shelter and we need to have some female-only ones. With dedicated provision for TW. I respect your activism and would be happy to donate if you set up a shelter dedicated to your trans and NB sisters. And would understand that I, not being transgender or NB, would not be the target population for that.

BickerinBrattle · 31/07/2019 05:24

Jenn Please check your facts.

Hate crimes are not up 81%. Rather, hate “incidents” are up. Again, the slipperiness of language. A hate incident is not a hate crime specifically because there is no crime attached to it. A hate incident is a phone call to the police that someone felt aggrieved — and we all know that transactivists have encouraged the placing of these phone calls — “to get the statistics up” is the exact quote.

Meanwhile, of course, hate incidents and/or hate crimes against women aren’t tallied at all, because unlike transwomen,, women aren’t covered in hate crime legislation. Hate against women qua women isn’t a crime at all — because if it were, police departments would not be able to deal with any other complaint, so busy would they be answering the reports. It is to laugh, imagining police response to a woman reporting that, on account of hostility toward her sex, she felt aggrieved.

Pride, or rather The Stonewall riots, were not launched by a a transwoman but were instigated by an African-American lesbian named Storme DeLavarie who is continually erased by the revisionist history transactivists engage in. Nor were the riots at Stonewall the definitive beginning or the apotheosis of gay rights activism, which long preceded Stonewall and in fact greatly accelerated during the years of the Aids crisis and no, sorry, transactivists were NOT on those front lines, nor were they the ones, as lesbians were, devoting time, love, scarce household monies, and actual blood to caring for ill and dying gay brothers.

NOTHING advanced the rights of gays and lesbians more than 1) the fierce and resolute activism of Act-Up and 2) the deaths of gay men, of gay family members, the straight community finally having to choke on and swallow down the implications of their bigotry. How dare the trans community claim the agency, the martyrdom, the losses and agony, and the hard-wrought results the gay community won with blood and pandemic death. My god, talk about appropriation— have you no shame?

And by the way, it was lesbians, many of whom were radical feminists, not transwomen, who abseiled into Parliament to fight Section 28.

Apologies if I misread your words, but it appears to me that you are stating that GC feminists trigger you with mentions of harassment and assault. If so, I think it truly a shame that the accounts of harassment and assault women have endured are so difficult for you to hear. Nonetheless, I’m quite sure the women who endured the actual harassment and assault had it worse.

One transwoman has been murdered in the U.K. in the last decade. Over two women a week are murdered by males each week. More transwomen have committed murder than have been murdered in the U.K. in the last decade.The same cannot be said for women. Per the BBC fact-checking, half of all transwomen currently imprisoned are incarcerated for having committed sexual offences. Meanwhile, less than 3% of female prisoners are incarcerated for sexual offences.

The spaces women fought for were precisely in reaction to male violence, and until you can prove that males, by stating they are women, no longer share with males whatever it is that has, for millennia, engendered male violence against women, the null hypothesis must be that females still need female-only space.

GC feminists would fight side-by-side with transwomen for third spaces. It’s a pity that when feminists proposed exactly that alliance, the response from transwomen was that they’d rather piss on the floor than use a third space.

So it was not GC feminists who started this fight. The fight came to us, just as all colonising efforts come to the would-be colonised, and just as the British Empire used little of its own armies to suppress the Indian populace but instead relied on the Indian officers it promoted to do so, so transactivism relies on women to suppress women who resist male colonisation and appropriation.

Those of us who have studied women’s history know that for millennia, across culture, men have created all sorts of laws and custom to prevent women from gathering together free of male presence, exactly as all oppressors work to forbid the oppressed from preserving a sense of their own history, language, and rituals.

So we will fight against relinquishing female space.

Just as we will not be made to believe, against all material fact, that it’s possible to change biological sex, that males who state they are women pose any less risk to females than males who don’t state that, or that because males might be at risk from other males, it is somehow the responsibility of females to sacrifice what we spent centuries fighting for. We will not hand over what we fought for merely because males plant a pink-and-blue flag and lay claim to it all.

Nor will we mothers NOT fight with our every breath for the safety and bodily integrity of our children against medical experimentation gone rogue to the point of abandoning ethical standards long ago implemented precisely to protect experimental subjects. I’m afraid you’re about to find yourself on the wrong side of history, aligned with those who promoted thalidomide and who conducted the Tuskegee experiments. My advice is that you get put in front of the breaking wave rather than try to quash it. I’m sure you ever intended, in your activism, that children grow into an adulthood of catastrophic bone loss and loss of all orgasmic potential, but it would probably be best to say so sooner rather than later.

But do you believe female athletes must compete against male athletes? Are you going to argue, contrary to science but in cult fashion, that male athletes by virtue of stating they are female, or by virtue of suppressing testosterone for one year, lose all physiological advantages honed over millennia of evolution? Are you going to, as cultists do, or right-wingers do, deny evolution? Which is exactly what you do if you deny its very process of natural selection, ie sexual dimorphism.

Do you believe that there are such things as female testicles, and that law should compel women to wax them, in order not to discriminate against some females? Or do you believe that self-I.d. of gender and therefore access to all female set-asides shouldn’t apply in those cases you decide it shouldn’t?

Do these very questions make clear to you, or at least to lurkers, why GC feminists consider belief in genderist positions akin to cultist beliefs?

Your project is destined to fail. You cannot change material reality by changing the language that describes that reality, and in fact the proposition that you can do so is a reactionary belief, undoing leftist politics whose very philosophical foundation is the insistence that politics be grounded in material reality. That you, advocate of idealism over materialism, accuse others of fascism is the height of absurdity, because fascism is the ultimate expression of idealist philosophy.

And that is why you must resort, and so eagerly do so, to the authoritarian bullying you display with Emma Burnell.

But all of us know who is a man and who is a woman. Every single human being who engages in heterosexual intercourse,, ie 95% of the world’s 7.5 billion people, know whether or not they are the ones who must worry whether they’ll get pregnant, or not.

I don’t adhere to the Whig view of history, as you seem to, that progress is a given merely by virtue of the passage of time. But I do believe that reality always asserts itself.

Your project hinges on the silent obedience of 3.75 billion women, as you enforced with Emma Burnell, and on dictatorial insistence that 7.5 billion people disbelieve material reality they perceive with all five of their senses.

The Jacobins couldn’t even get the French to rename the months of the year, and they had the guillotine at their disposal.

Good luck with the female penis.

Bespin · 31/07/2019 06:02

BickerinBrattle

the pride marches not the riot were very much pushed forwards by trans woman of colour until they were sidelined by gay white men looking for acceptance.