This is a good thread about female trans allies

[Doyoumind]

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

We generally get 2 types of female genderists here. We have the idealists and the queer theory academics. I think we've had a bit of both on this thread.

One thing they both seem to have in common is a sense of superior virtue that comes from their support for males who wish to accesses spaces and services set aside for women.

i think it's probably that sense of virtue, of being a 'good person' that is one of the primary drivers.

I wonder if part of it has come from the mental gymnastics that white people who regard themselves as 'good' (I am white and used to regard myself as 'good' until I became a horrific terf) have had to undertake to try to understand the issues faced by people from what are in Britain ethnic minorities. Particularly issues that aren't obvious at first, like never seeing people who look like you in positions of power and authority, or even on the bloody TV.

Maybe the reasoning goes

well if I had to bend my brain for that (and maybe still don't completely get it all), but I know it's morally correct, surely the brain bending I have to do to believe that males can become women is completely fine, even if, at its heart it doesn't make sense to me. lots of people tell me it's morally correct, so I'm sure it's fine

Just musing really

Trans women are women because womanhood is not determined by biology

But people who say this know that what they mean by it is something different to what they are actually saying - as noted above, "nobody is saying people can actually change sex".

I can only assume that what they mean by womanhood is personality, but that they believe that personality is gendered and innate.

I assume that because despite my efforts at going against gender stereotypes growing up, I still kind of thought in terms of gendered personalities until after having children (Because it made sense that there was something wrong with me rather than society).

Having children and breastfeeding them for a few years, along with FWR, has changed my thinking in that respect. That, along with actually reading what trans people and TRAs are saying.

Because I'm either a woman purely because of my biology and my personality, or I'm trans. Which is it?

and my personality is irrelevant, that should say

Dammit.

I'm just gobsmacked that there's a bunch of people on a feminist thread agreeing that young women are so easily led, obsessed with appearance, insecure, and will do anything to fit in. Without any evidence. I mean, where does this come from - some great well of internalized misogyny?

FFS, this reminds me of a book review I saw on Goodreads, where the author was being lambasted for misogyny because he had women beating up on other women and men in one of the stories. The women who were doing the beating up were entirely justified IMO 😂 The story was about a primitive tribe in an ice age, the men kept drinking and chasing after the younger women, who were enjoying the attention, while the older women chewed leather and dug roots and did all the grunt work. WTF, how misogynistic is it to think that older women should just shut up and be nice and do all the work?

How misogynistic is it to think that every single woman in the world has to be nice, not call some other women cunts or bawbags if they disagree with them? Can we not call out people who are being stupid? FOTTFSOF.

Because I'm either a woman purely because of my biology and my personality is irrelevant, or I'm trans.

I'll stop multiple posting now. Sorry.

I can only assume that what they mean by womanhood is personality

Yes. But they will never explain what a feminine gender identity is like because they know that the next 20 posts will all say ‘fuck me, that’s sexist’

Because thinking that the thing that women have in common is some facets of their personalities is unbelievably sexist

Genderism is sexist. It’s all a con that gets women with solid feminist views to say the same things about lady brain as Jordan Peterson

@juells of course yes, criticize, argue, use violence if that's what you're into. Just don't use sexist stereotypes to dismiss them.

Then it should be easy to argue on substance and not resort to using sexist stereotypes to attack women who disagree.

Is that happening on this thread? I’ve just spent my time trying to catch up on this one and I don’t see what you’re claiming here. I see a lot of detriment and goady behaviour, which I’m sick of and have reported, but if you’re talking about another thread, go to that thread. Stop bringing other threads here.

Actually, don't use violence. That's a crime.

Great. Then it should be easy to argue on substance

Well it is already? The majority of this thread has been, at least on the GC side of the debate.

Without any evidence. I mean, where does this come from

I'm not sure, but would guess it's observation, coupled with the fact this ideology is being taught to young people and that young women are more likely to have friends who are trans from a very young age. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but your social circles play a big part in forming your views when you're young, as does social media. If you are growing up with this view, it's all around you, even in school and education and is rarely challenged, its a no brainier that young women are more likely to support it than women who have already established a world view and have experience to back it up. It seems a lot like a fashionable thing to be. My 11yr old DD was recently confused, awkward and tongue tied because she didn't know whether to say sex or gender, for example. My 11yr old self did not have this problem.

And thank you for the votes of confidence! I didn't think anyone would even read my post!

@JessicaWakefieldSV that was the twitter argument in the OP

Can we not call out people who are being stupid?
This is basically what I'm trying to say 😂😂😂

agreeing that young women are so easily led, obsessed with appearance, insecure, and will do anything to fit in.

I don’t think that there was a general consensus about that on the thread?

But don’t forget that most of us have been young women. Insecure about my appearance? Desperate to find a ‘tribe’? That was me to a T

I'm just gobsmacked that there's a bunch of people on a feminist thread agreeing that young women are so easily led, obsessed with appearance, insecure, and will do anything to fit in. Without any evidence. I mean, where does this come from - some great well of internalized misogyny?

Well, young people are more easily led than older people. Is it now offensive to make a pretty well established observed behaviour that with experience, life experience, you will learn more as you age and become stronger and more confident, more sure of yourself and more able to reject manipulation. This shouldn’t be shocking to discuss to be honest. I know I was absolutely a different woman at age 18 than age 40, far less worried about what other people thought of my opinions and much freer to make my own and not just go with the crowd. Obviously it differs to what extent a person is influenced, but this isn’t a new phenomena, it’s called growing up!

Maniak it said feminist thread, I assume that to mean FWR, not twitter. ( the op tweet has gone or is protected )

young women are so easily led, obsessed with appearance, insecure, and will do anything to fit in

Also, I'd be surprised if regular posters here blame young women for, in some cases, being obsessed with appearance, or desperate to fit in (and I think it's indisputable that some young women do suffer from these things)

They're more likely to deplore the society that backs young women into these corners, and the harmful ideology that seeks to exploit them to recruit its cannon fodder

They're more likely to deplore the society that backs young women into these corners, and the harmful ideology that seeks to exploit them to recruit its cannon fodder

Yes they are on this board and it’s generally what is said, but of course that doesn’t fit with certain intentions here.

Also, I'd be surprised if regular posters here blame young women for, in some cases, being obsessed with appearance

Pretty certain it was a regular who came up with this gem of self- satisfied, patronising pomposity.

I think it's a shame women feel the need to spend time on make up and hair removal and so on instead of reading and learning, but that's because I value learning more than primping. Horses for courses and all that

I think one issue is that the GC feminists insist on complete logic - a biological man cannot become a biological women - and leave no space for feelings.

Logically a man cannot become a woman, but people born male can feel that they can only find their truth and live authentically by presenting as a woman, it is not logical, it is feelings. In the same way, there is no logic to being homosexual, our only purpose as biological entities is to reproduce and same sex attraction is not logical. But those feelings are strong and authentic for many people. Just because I do not personally have those feelings, that does not mean they are inauthentic or wrong.

I am not young and I did think the ageism and misogyny on the tweet that started this thread was disturbing and I am disappointed any feminist would support it. I do see the issues around single sex sports, sex based protections and medicating young children, but I also see the importance of supporting people to live in the way that feels right for them. FWR board is too black and white for me and allows no nuance on this issue, which is why I seldom post here, but It wanted to try and explain why women, of any age, may not fall in line with the prevailing FWR gender critical stance.

That’s pretty awful Lass!

Good job we’re all individuals and not a hive mind eh?

I’d have expected that person to have been robustly challenged, not least by you (who are a regular poster here)

I do makeup and hair removal as well as reading and learning

(That’s a joke by the way. Given the poor level of comprehension displayed in some places on this thread, I feel the need to point that out, which obviously makes jokes oh so much funnier. One of the reasons that having people around who demonstrate a leaden lack of ability to deal in nuance is so great)

thenavigator Do you think someone without "authentic feelings" could say they were trans? How would one ever know if another's feelings were authentic?

I'm just gobsmacked that there's a bunch of people on a feminist thread agreeing that young women are so easily led, obsessed with appearance, insecure, and will do anything to fit in.

You can't be. The selfie generation is something that is discussed on here a lot. The pressure on young women to conform is exactly what leads to trans identities.

I think it’s totally valid to say something like, many women young and old spend too much time on their appearance and it’s a distraction from what matters and fuelled by a society that places too much importance on how a women looks. There is too much pressure for us all to conform and change our appearance. We know how much women spend on beauty products, so it’s not like it’s plucked from nowhere. But that would be different from calling women names for doing so or harshly judging them without the context of societal pressure. It is weird there was just a post from someone new about whether she could be feminist with long hair.... so weird all these topics lately....