This is a good thread about female trans allies

[Doyoumind]

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

While we can all attempt to imagine what it's like to be in another person's shoes ad nauseum, we will never really know until we have the experience ourselves.

I know exactly what it's like to hate your body - hate of self, I've lived it. When I felt that way I was beautiful inside and out but no matter what the world saw all I could see was a disgusting worthless subhuman creature. Violations of body and mind cause distortions in perceptions of self.

Expecting others to put your perception of yourself ahead of material reality is usually narcissistic and abusive, sometimes it is merely complete lack of self-awareness. Expecting an oppressed class to kneel down and sacrifice their material reality at your perception of self is insanely discombobulated and psychologically unbalanced.

It is no one's job to validate you but you.

Pages and pages ago ScottishJenn used the trigger argument about survivors of rape and abuse. As a survivor and as a woman I refuse to validate men (regardless of identity) by sharing space with them when I am most vulnerable (bathrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc.). Attempting to force me to share sex-segregated spaces with men is psychological warfare.

It takes me back to a very painful memory - being held down and forced to say that I liked being touched when both of us knew I was terrified; this experience like the TWAW mantra is a power play constructed to rip autonomy away from women.

now you FEEL like a woman. I thought you were only a woman because of your physical manifestation?

Nah, still just me on the outside

Of course my employer trying to force me to take a 10% pay cut because I’d had a baby made it pretty obvious how others see me

Yep, I bet me or you said I thought people who didn't agree were cowbag bitches I'd get accused of being a man.

You're not wrong there. Can you imagine?

Darn

Me on the INSIDE

The whole thread is about is it OK to talk like this about women with a different opinion though so it was kind of relevant.
It's gone back onto the Groundhog Day roundabout of what is a woman instead though which wasn't what the thread was about.

Also, Petrol, please understand you are trying to get people who don't agree there is such a thing as gender identity to state they would still feel that non existent gender identity in another body.

If I woke up in another body, I would be me based on all my experiences that went before it that have shaped who I am. I would be me in a man's body. I would be someone with genuine experience of being a woman who could now piss standing up and get a better paid job.

No, not thought crime, just misogynism. I wonder why so few posters called her out on it though?

Because everyone else apart from you two could understand that she was making an exaggerated joke about thoughts in her head, that she probably didn't even have?

Sorry stoptheplanet. That must have been terrible for you

Very good post as have many been on here

If I woke up in another body,

that thing that could never happen in reality

Of course people can feel they’re not women when they are. There are people who feel they’re not human when they are. There are people who feel they are made of glass and could shatter into a million pieces. There are people who don’t feel like they are pregnant despite feeling their baby kicking.

There are many people who can’t feel what they are.

But that isn’t what Petrol and Rose have been getting at on this thread. They are talking about imagining yourself in someone else’s body, which is not a thing actually happening to anyone. It’s impossible.

They seem desperately unhappy
Nope, very happy thank you
deeply anxious and lacking in something they need.
Must be lacking something then...
My feminism should be for women, even women like them. But it is hard to restrain the decidedly un-feminist ‘those fucking traitor cowbag bitches’ thoughts.

Where in any of that does it sound like an exaggerated joke, I ,mean she even says women like them....

Of course it wasn't a joke. You've only got to observe the derision people are subjected to when they refuse to be aggressively enlightened.

Rose I have seen you in a few threads and tbh not quite sure what you are saying and what firm opions you have.

It’s really hard for me to get a grasp on what you are trying to convey ?

You've only got to observe the derision people are subjected to when they refuse to be aggressively enlightened

Yep, the word twisting and playground a few pages back prime example.

Haha, pages of obsessing about one remark, managing to derail the thread.

Haha, pages of obsessing about one remark, managing to derail the thread

It is LITERALLY what the thread is about. As in discuss the way people talk about female trans allies. It's even the thread title so completely on topic. If anything's derailing it is the seemingly desperate going back to "define woman" over and over to ignore the actual topic, the thread isn't even ABOUT that, it's about women and trans allies

How can you be derailing when you go back to talking about the actual topic?

Yes, it's absolutely the purpose of the thread.

Roses. See my question ?

Yes, it's absolutely the purpose of the thread

Exactly, I mean WTF it's not derailing to talk about the actual topic lol, there's some bizarre leaps going on

Petrol, it’s not word twisting. It’s trying to stick to exactly what you are saying, which is a supernatural belief system, and doesn’t even seem to have much to do with what trans people actually experience.

What you’re describing is more like the episode of Doctor Who where they put people’s brains and nervous systems inside the bodies of cyber men and they all wish they were dead.

Surely if one finds themselves in another body, they will just get on with it? I mean, initially it will be weird and probably distressing, but if it's something that just happened and you had no control over it, then most humans adapt and learn to deal with the unexpected.

People lose limbs, their face and bodies completely disfigured through fire, acid attacks and other injuries, bodies debilitated by chronic illness and so on. You might as well be in a different body if your physical appearance is drastically altered. But life goes on and most people manage to come to terms with their new body. Plastic and cosmetic surgery can only do so much. Part of the human condition is learning to accept who you are and not relentlessly trying to be something you are not. The body and mind are deeply intertwined and our minds are shaped by the stimuli and sensations from our bodies. In the hypothetical scenario of being inside a different body, people would generally adapt to their new physical exterior, surely.

Tag team

The actual topic of the thread was why people of specific ages and social backgrounds support transgenderism.

littlbrowndog

Sorry stoptheplanet. That must have been terrible for you

I was 5yr old - he giggled as he did as he pleased. Thank you for your kindness, that 5 year old is part of my tapestry - I realize now that she was stronger than she ever could have imagined.

I didn't write it because I was looking for sympathy (I want to make that clear).

I wrote it because I think it nicely illustrates the coercion that many women experience from childhood to adulthood.

Very good post as have many been on here

Thank you - and yes! There have been so many good posts! Regardless of my perspective I always learn something here.