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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women who refuse sex work may lose benefits (Germany)

197 replies

wigglybluelines · 21/07/2019 08:15

Terrifying.

Are the public in Germany behind this? (Surely not?!)

A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.

Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners – who must pay tax and employee health insurance – were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.

Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit.

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

More here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 21/07/2019 08:18

That’s terrifying.

Where the fuck are we heading?

Germany?

I feel sick.

Witchofthenorth · 21/07/2019 08:19

I find this absolutely horrifying! Surely this has to be media spinning a situation to suit their need for readers?

BadgertheBodger · 21/07/2019 08:20

Christ that is absolutely terrifying. How can they possibly think it is acceptable?

LizzieSiddal · 21/07/2019 08:23

What the fuck!! Surely this case will put a stop to this, but why the fuck are women being put in this postion in the first place- just like Self ID, why do we have to continue to fight for our rights, saftey and dignty?

And how the heck is working in bar, similar to working in a brothel??

CrackOn · 21/07/2019 08:23

Wow. Very handmaid's tale.

EweSurname · 21/07/2019 08:23

The article is from 2005 - I wonder what happened since then

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 21/07/2019 08:23

Surely this has to be media spinning a situation to suit their need for readers?

Why? Surely it is simply the logical conclusion of 'sex work is work'.

It's exactly why sane people do not consider sexual exploitation work. Sadly German law does. This is where it leads.

ArabellaDoreenFig · 21/07/2019 08:24

This is why we can’t accept the mantra that is sex work is work

Because it isn’t. It isn’t a choice. It isn’t empowering and it isn’t something any woman should ever have to do.

wigglybluelines · 21/07/2019 08:24

Surely this has to be media spinning a situation to suit their need for readers?

I wish it was but doesn't read that way to me. Here's the full article:

A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.

Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners – who must pay tax and employee health insurance – were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.

Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit. Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law. Job centres that refuse to penalise people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.

"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases. "The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."

Miss Garweg said that women who had worked in call centres had been offered jobs on telephone sex lines. At one job centre in the city of Gotha, a 23-year-old woman was told that she had to attend an interview as a "nude model", and should report back on the meeting. Employers in the sex industry can also advertise in job centres, a move that came into force this month. A job centre that refuses to accept the advertisement can be sued.

Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.

"Why shouldn't I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?" said Miss Ulyanova.

Ulrich Kueperkoch wanted to open a brothel in Goerlitz, in former East Germany, but his local job centre withdrew his advertisement for 12 prostitutes, saying it would be impossible to find them.

Mr Kueperkoch said that he was confident of demand for a brothel in the area and planned to take a claim for compensation to the highest court. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to combat trafficking in women and cut links to organised crime.

Miss Garweg believes that pressure on job centres to meet employment targets will soon result in them using their powers to cut the benefits of women who refuse jobs providing sexual services.

"They are already prepared to push women into jobs related to sexual services, but which don't count as prostitution,'' she said.

"Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."

OP posts:
ArabellaDoreenFig · 21/07/2019 08:25

(Cross post with Arnold)

mrswarthog · 21/07/2019 08:25

That's from 2003 - is it still the same situation?

DpWm · 21/07/2019 08:26

Too difficult to distinguish them from bars
Confused

  1. A place where men and women buy drinks and maybe a packet of crisps.
  1. A place where men buy women for sex and blow jobs.

Gosh, I just can't tell the difference!

wigglybluelines · 21/07/2019 08:27

The article is from 2005

Apologies!!

It came up in my Facebook feed this morning and I didn't check the date Blush 2005 is quite some time ago!

Hoping this was changed.

OP posts:
sadkoala · 21/07/2019 08:28

Has there been anything about it since? The article is from 2005 so not really relevant unless the information in it still stands today?
Surely if this was still carrying on it would be known?

Anyone have any further info?

LizzieSiddal · 21/07/2019 08:31

I'm relieved it's from 2005, I expect we would have heard about cases, if it was still happening.

CatteStreet · 21/07/2019 08:31

I live in Germany.
I've had a quick google and can't find a recent relevant case. I also find it hard to believe that a woman would actually be sanctioned for refusing a job in this setting. No court would let it stand, for one.

It does seem to be the case that job centres send claimants ads for jobs in the sexual services industry (for want of a better term), but not where the 'job' is clearly prostitution. They appear to group jobs and either send ads or not according to how close they are to actual sex work. There is also advice not to sanction if a woman rejects a (not directly sex work) job in the industry, but it's admittedly unclear whether this advice has to be kept to.

But as I said, I can't for a second imagine that any such sanction, if it were to be issued by an individual job centre employee, would stand on appeal, let alone in court.

CatteStreet · 21/07/2019 08:31

Ah, x lots of posts!

HorsewithnoRegretsNonJeNeRegre · 21/07/2019 08:32

Can men be similarly forced into sex work too?

I'm thinking not.

TheVanguardSix · 21/07/2019 08:33

This is a 14-year-old article, OP.

seven201 · 21/07/2019 08:36

Phew, I'm so glad this is an old article. Absolutely terrifying.

TheVanguardSix · 21/07/2019 08:38

Outdated article... but is the information that out of date? It still is a relevant topic, OP and of course, it brings up the pros and cons of Germany's legalization of prostitution based on the nordic model. Has it really worked?

freepolicybriefs.org/2019/04/21/the-nordic-model-of-prostitution-legislation-health-violence-and-spillover-effects/

BoglingToAswad · 21/07/2019 08:39

Hoping this was changed.

It wasn't even true then. www.snopes.com/fact-check/hot-jobs/

There is a huge amount of misinformation about sex work, but reinforcing this can actually be quite dangerous to sex workers, so please think a bit more carefully about where your 'facts' have come from.

CatteStreet · 21/07/2019 08:43

The context is also important. At the time this was written, Germany was just reforming its unemployment benefits system to be a lot less generous than what had been in place before. There was a lot of outrage and there were a lot of scare stories going round, with varying truth content. But the whole system does continue to be a lot more common-sense-led than what I have observed of the UK's.

BoglingToAswad · 21/07/2019 08:45

Outdated article... but is the information that out of date? It still is a relevant topic, OP and of course, it brings up the pros and cons of Germany's legalization of prostitution based on the nordic model. Has it really worked?

Legalisation doesn't work, and neither does the Nordic model.

That is why sex workers support full decriminalisation (and the Nordic model is NOT decriminalisation, by the way.) Debating the pros and cons of legalisation is a bit pointless when everyone agrees it doesn't work and nobody wants it!

rabbitwoman · 21/07/2019 08:57

Old article - maybe.

But I was discussing this with friends - all mothers of girls, by the way - who didn't see anything wrong with sex workers having stalls at university Freshers fairs, and when I said that normalising sex work would lead to unemployed women being forced to take this kind of work they were incredulous

But it shows it was something in the public consciousness 15 years ago. And look what is happening now. Women being forced to share safe spaces with men and perform intimate waxing services on male genitals against their will - not much of a leap, I reckon .....