Women who refuse sex work may lose benefits (Germany)

[wigglybluelines]

Terrifying.

Are the public in Germany behind this? (Surely not?!)

A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.

Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners – who must pay tax and employee health insurance – were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.

Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit.

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

More here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html

Yes, and if sexual services become accepted as work, then what's to stop your boss adding a hand job once a week to your nice office job? If it's just work, what's the problem?

Saying 'sex work is work' is not the same as saying 'sex work is a job like any other'. The key difference is consent. If someone agrees to provide sexual services in exchange for money then that is their choice, if your boss decided to take sexual services from you without your consent that is coercion and assault.

Obviously sex work is not like working in an office, but that doesn't mean it isn't work. The fact that sex work is work does not mean people who don't want to do it should be made to.

@AlessandraAsteriti
disagreement is not lecturing. I do not think prostitution can be 'normalised' as any other form of legal work for the reasons I gave. If you disagree that is fine. I am not lecturing. I am expressing an opinion. Which, instead of debating with your reasons, you criticise as lecturing. The equivalent of a toddler's temper tantrum. Bye

Do you have comprehension difficulties? I have not said anything to support prostitution being treated as normal or work Exactly the opposite.

'There is no point relaxing laws in a legalised model, because legalisation doesn't work. I'm not sure anyone is calling for that.'

If no one called for it, why was it done in Germany in the first place?!

Reason decrim is preferred is that if legal and health and safety applied properly, it's immediately illegal again. Obviously.

BoglingToAswad

You are missing the point.

If sexual services really are just the same as any job, then logically they could be added to job descriptions outside of the sex industry. Why not? Consent would be covered by applicants for the job knowing it's part of the job description and choosing to take that job.

(Of course some may feel they can't turn it down because of their circumstances mean they have to take the job so it's not genuine consent - but if you're going to ignore that for prostitution we'll have to ignore it here too).

If giving blow jobs as an Executive Assistant to the CEO is not on - why not? (Could it be that prostitution isn't just like any other job after all?)

'Saying 'sex work is work' is not the same as saying 'sex work is a job like any other'.

but that's the next step

Sex work / prostitution is a job like any other is all over the internet. Being argued for by mras, people who think they're feminists, and tras (there seems to be a big connection between the two for some reason).
Accept sex work is work and next stop is its a job like any other. You're naive if you think otherwise.

I am aok with criminalising punters. It reduces demand. That's a good result.

Sorry I phrased that wrong.

If a CEO asking an Executive Assistant to give him blow jobs as part of her job role isn't acceptable - well, why not?

Could it be that prostitution isn't just like any other job after all?

Hirsutefirs

I don’t think Aless understood Lass’s writings

Thank you. How anyone could read this 14-year old fake stories do nothing to assist the cause of anyone who opposes the normalisation of prostitution- of which I am one and then proceed to write the nonsense Aless came up with escapes me.

I am aok with criminalising punters. It reduces demand. That's a good result

And it says that as a society we are not OK with this. We are not OK with men buying women's bodies to degrade and use and abuse them. We're sending a signal to them that this is not acceptable behaviour.

Could it be that prostitution isn't just like any other job after all?

Oh ffs - for the hard of thinking of course prostitution isn't like "any other job". It isn't a job.

Sex work is work
House work is work
Volunteering for the pta is work
Office work is work
House breaking is work (sounds weird but it is for the person doing it!)
Growing cannabis as a modern slave is work
Lots of things are work

Some are legal some not, some paid some not, some society is ok with some not.

As a slogan sex work is work is fairly meaningless, surely.

Oh ffs - for the hard of thinking of course prostitution isn't like "any other job". It isn't a job.

It was a rhetorical question. Of course it isn't like any other job.

@Lass
It was not clear if you were on the side of normalising prostitution, or of opposing normalising prostitution. Sorry if I interpreted the other way. But I do think the onus of explaining how decriminalisation will not result in the situation of the article does rest with those who propose decriminalisation. There are in the end 4 options:
Legalising prostitution, German-style
Decriminalising prostitution, NZ-style
Criminalising users of prostitution, Nordic-style
(No-one really proposes criminalising prostitutes, but at different levels, many countries do, including those who legalise it with conditions.)

House breaking

Took me a couple of seconds to work out you meant breaking into houses but yes, brilliant point!

As a slogan sex work is work is fairly meaningless, surely

The intention is to legitimise prostitution et al as being as valid as any other form of paid work. The intention is to posit the case that there is a stigma in being a prostitute and that the stigma is unfair.

Whilst of course there is a stigma attached to individual women that is really not the issue. Prostitution is not a valid form of work. It serves no useful purpose- many jobs are dangerous and/ or badly paid but they still perform a useful purpose.

It is damaging to the women who are prostitutes, damaging to women as a whole and ultimately damaging to society. Normalising prostitution degrades human dignity.

As an aside @AlessandraAsteriti - do you need this spelt out in words of one syllable? If anyone has behaved like a toddler it isn't me.

Years ago I was threatened with stopping my jobseekers benefit because I turned down a job that asked for a full body photograph and had a uniform that consisted of a binkini top and hot pants. It was promotion work for some nightclub or possibly strip club in the middle of a city centre at night.
I hadn't been unemployed very long and the woman at the job centre acted like I was trying to avoid having to get a job.

And I thought THAT was bad. This thing in Germany sounds horrendous. I doubt it'll get far though. They will have to push a morality exception through ASAP.

If giving blow jobs as an Executive Assistant to the CEO is not on - why not? (Could it be that prostitution isn't just like any other job after all?)

I didn't say sex work is just like any other job. I pointed out that sex work being work doesn't have to mean it is like any other job. For many sex workers it is 'just a job' but this does not mean we think everyone should have to do it!

Nobody should have to engage in sexual services whether paid or not, and consent can still be withdrawn after payment. So of course sex work is not like other jobs, but neither is acting or ice dancing, and they are still considered legitimate work.

Lass
It was not clear if you were on the side of normalising prostitution, or of opposing normalising prostitution

Really? I wrote
14-year old fake stories do nothing to assist the cause of anyone who opposes the normalisation of prostitution- of which I am one

and that was after I had objected to the use of the umbrella term of "sex worker" because it means pumps can shelter under it.

I'm struggling to see how one could interpret "I am opposed to the normalisation of prostitution" to mean "I am pro- prostitution"

Whoops, wrote my reply earlier and posted now. Didn't see the replies. Glad it's an outdated article.

@Sorry, I might have read your message out of context. My point is that, while the story is old and inaccurate, the point it raises is very relevant to the decriminalisation debate, in general (not attributing this to you). If prostitution laws are repealed, and prostitution is considered work how to distinguish it from other forms of work when necessary?

And it says that as a society we are not OK with this. We are not OK with men buying women's bodies to degrade and use and abuse them. We're sending a signal to them that this is not acceptable behaviour.

I prefer decriminalisation because abuse, assaults, coercion and trafficking remain illegal under this system. Is that not sending a message?

The problem with criminalising buyers to make a point is that you are doing it at the expense of sex workers.

'consent can still be withdrawn after payment'

In theory
In practice we all know what can happen when men get told no
Even more so when they thought they were 'in'
Even more so when they have paid for it

Reason so many women are horrified by prostitution is not because we see prostitutes as other, or a threat, this is what mra claim. Reason we are horrified is we know only too well what the experiences and dangers would be. Because we know vulnerable people who could or have gone down this route.

If prostitution laws are repealed, and prostitution is considered work how to distinguish it from other forms of work when necessary?

This would be a much more productive conversation to have.

'I prefer decriminalisation because abuse, assaults, coercion and trafficking remain illegal under this system. Is that not sending a message?'

Yes it sends the message that men should have the right to buy women to fuck.

That's not a good message for the men and boys in our society. For a number of reasons.

The impact of men and boys knowing that, is on women and girls.

Those things may be illegal in theory but rarely in practice.

Yes it sends the message that men should have the right to buy women to fuck

So if you pay for a service you feel you are inherently entitled to that service?