Women who refuse sex work may lose benefits (Germany)

[wigglybluelines]

Terrifying.

Are the public in Germany behind this? (Surely not?!)

A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.

Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners – who must pay tax and employee health insurance – were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.

Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit.

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

More here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html

The numbers in the first link are not supported by the police in Ireland. Who runs Ugly Mugs?

Of course they are not supported by the police. Workers in criminalised situations don't want to report these situations to the police, in case they are prosecuted. Ugly mugs is a safety organisation for sex workers. It provides safety advice, a screening service and support (including support reporting to the police if wanted).

Ugly Mugs was started by the female partner of a pimp. Did you even read my posts. Why are you quoting them?

The pimp lobby lies about the Nordic Model routinely. It will put them out of business. They're compromised.

"Violent attacks against sex workers have risen by 92% since the law changed in Ireland."

This proves men should never able to purchase sex, they are too violent and misogynistic to have their hookers without hating them to death.

Public policy should never be terrorized into trying to appease extremely violent men by offering them sacrificial victims, that's not how civilized society operates.

Ugly Mugs was started by the female partner of a pimp. Did you even read my posts. Why are you quoting them?

You are surprised that support and help with safety for sex workers comes from within the industry? Despite all the claims from people outside the industry who say they care about sex workers I am yet to find an organisation which offers any practical help whatsoever, let alone treats us with any respect.

The pimp lobby lies about the Nordic Model routinely. It will put them out of business. They're compromised

What exactly is the 'pimp lobby'? I have seen that phrase used in a derogatory way to a nurse who has the best interests of sex workers at heart, sex workers (or prostitutes if that makes it easier for you) who do not agree with the Nordic model, and academics whose findings are not favourable. You can't just apply it to everyone who disagrees with you.

This proves men should never able to purchase sex, they are too violent and misogynistic to have their hookers without hating them to death.

This proves sex workers should not be put in such a vulnerable position by the law that they are unable to properly screen. Violent men target vulnerable women. Please stop trying to make us more vulnerable.

The imaginary place between "punter men so violent society must do as I insist to help me" and "punter men not so violent I can't control them at will" is where your argument nosedives and crashes hard.

www.spaceintl.org/

www.ruhama.ie/

www.turnofftheredlight.ie/

breakingfree.net/

You really don't have a problem with pimps do you? I'm applying the term "pimp lobby" to pimps - Douglas Fox and the director of Ugly Mugs. It's quite clear from my posts, so why you would want to twist that into "anyone who disagrees with me" I don't know, but it's not a true thing to say.

Violent men target vulnerable women. Please stop trying to make us more vulnerable.

By allowing violent men unfettered sexual access to some of the most vulnerable women in society. Yes, that makes so much sense.

Perfect example of someone picking up and spreading sensationalist and outdated news off Facebook without any fact checking if it sounds too outrageous to be true then 9 times out of 10 it is just that. But I suppose it’s more exciting than getting wound up about real issues.

It's not that far from the real issues. Calling prostitution work, when prostitution is almost overwhelmingly done to women, renames men's sexual use and abuse of women and girls, as work that women do. It's an ancient patriarchal idea getting a new airing.

I'm afraid I agree with PixieLumos to an extent.

Using a years old, proven to be false report is not helpful in dispelling the idea that anyone supporting the Nordic model is either a batty, extremist feminist , a right- wing control freak or a religious extremist- and possibly all 3.

Erythronium I'm not sure why you have linked to those organisations, because they are largely lobbying groups. They talk about supporting sex workers and exit programs but they don't actually provide anything. They barely even mentioned the two women recently imprisoned in Ireland, until prompted, and any actual support was provided by sex workers. Ruhama, run by the same order of nuns who ran the laundries, shouldn't be anywhere near sex workers. They have a program which largely consists of telling women to leave sex work and confiscating their earnings. Is it ok for them to profit from women's prostitution? Is it ok for money confiscated by sex workers to be donated to the Garda?

It's not actually necessary to criminalise buyers to provide support and exit programs, but to provide an effective one it's necessary to actually listen to sex workers. Talking down to us, spreading lies dismissing us, blaming us for the fact sex work exists and being aggressive is just not productive, but unfortunately it's largely what we see from people who support the Nordic model. I'm willing to have an honest discussion about sex work with most people, but not in the face of blatant hostility.

@Erythronium the title of this thread is spreading complete misinformation (a real issue in itself). The issues you are concerned about need to be discussed on a factual basis - beginning conversations like this on false information does more harm than good.

‘Sex work is work’ chills me to the bone. No, it’s not ‘work’ or ‘a job’ by any normal description of ‘work’ or a ‘job’.
It seems massively othering of women for anyone to believe it to so, which in turn can be used to justify all kinds of things.
This seems to be underpinned by the belief that money=consent as PP have said. That’s the same kind of attitude held by those super-privileged rampage groups who smash up massively less privileged people’s stuff/livelihood then leave behind a wad of notes to ‘make it all OK’. It’s dehumanising of other people.

Finally I may have read this wrong but I hope nobody was saying that people should have to have read around something before they post. That sounds a lot like people should shut up unless they have time to research it which would be a worryingly elitist attitude. Sorry not RTFT so hopefully I got the wrong end of the stick there..

Those organisations advocate for women who have been harmed in prostitution. They are set up by survivors, not pimps as Ugly Mugs was.

If you don't see why those organisations are the ones we need to be listening to about prostitution, then I can't help you. You're critical of them, but not of actual pimps. Not really suprising given your arguments on this thread I suppose.

Can’t it just be illegal to buy it, illegal for a 3rd party to make profit from it but decriminalise those who sell it? The point here should be to put all the legal power on the side of the vulnerable?

Its a bit sneakier than "if you refuse sex work you will lose benefits"

For me back in early 2001 if i hadnt taken a sex chatline job i would have had to do another round of workfare (New Labour"s New Deal . There wasnt a third alternative because no one else other than the sex chatline office was offering me a PAID job.

I spent just over two years there and they treated me really well.

Better than the workfare placements or retail jobs or care jobs ever did.

Just because it worked out okay back then (which was purely down to luck) does not mean it would work out well for others or that this is/was okay.

Do i think way way worse could happen/IS happening under Universal Credit

Absofuckinglutely!!!

(see my I Am Kirsty thread)

I've seen that telegraph article lots of times- rest assured it's false and intended to scaremonger.

www.snopes.com/fact-check/hot-jobs

Just to add- in countries where sexwork is legal, job centres do recognise that sexwork involves intimacy and therefore noone has ever be told "take this job as a sexworker or lose benefits".

I very much doubt in places where prostitution is legal they have the same "rights" as people in employment to adhere to health and safety laws regarding bodily fluids, coming into contact with spunk and saliva etc. They aren't provided with rubber gloves for starters.

When my dentist works on my mouth, he has gloves, a face mask, safety glasses, a scrub cap, and a scrub top on. I also wear safety glasses. Does the prostitute, taking a cock in her mouth, vagina or anus, have that level of protective clothing and equipment? Is the porn actress so protected? I doubt it. When my gynaecologist examines my vulva and vagina, she has gloves, a mask, a scrub cap, and an apron or scrub top. The prostitute has no such protection, nor does the porn actress.

[usual misinformed griping about the Nordic Model]

Legalising prostitution in a country, including by partial decriminalisation, increases human.trafficking to that country. Violence against prostitutes when punters are criminalised (i.e. the Nordic Model) can only be seen as increased compared to punters not being criminalised if you treat a face slap or hair pull as exactly equivalent to a stabbing or rape. Minor assault reports go up (possibly because women feel more confident reporting minor crimes under Nordic) but rapes in the linked study were HALVED by criminalising punters.

HALVING rapes of prostitutes is IMO excellent reason to bring the Nordic Model in.

One need only look at how women are treated in Holbeck to see how men treat ALL women when purchasing sex is decriminalised. In Germany, where it is legal, I was sexually harassed more in two weeks than I was during the other fifty weeks of the same year in the UK.

For prostituted women and the rest of us, we need the Nordic Model.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/dwp-striptease-artist-universal-credit_uk_5d5d4b35e4b063487e95c259?ncid=other_twitter_cooo9wqtham&utm_campaign=share_twitter