Peak Transing

[Apollo440]

This thread on AIBU has been joined by some aggressive TRAs who are doing sterling work peak transing the more delicate areas of mumsnet.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3634784-to-not-want-to-sign-off-my-emails-with-preferred-pronouns

Real TWAW No debate or your c*nts type. Carry on I say!

It worked for about 200000 years.

Its gender stereotypes we should be getting rid of. Not the biological sex binary of mammals.

No one wants vulnerable men to be beaten up or raped in a male prison.

The problem is, deciding that men who identify as women shouldn't be in the men's, so therefore they go in the women's. That's not the solution.

You can't just use the women's prison as a dumping ground for vulnerable men. What about old men, effeminate men, gay men, disabled men?

Women aren't weak men. And subjecting them to the presence of males, however much you personally may deem them not a risk, is wrong. Women prisoners are not there to validate male prisoners!

Most women in prison have significant issues. And the presence of men would exacerbate those.

One of the major issues over this, for me, is the expectation that women just soak up these problems. Because they're not considered, in any way.

What they want, need, require is immaterial to the validation of men.

And this is why feminism is so necessary. Feminism advocates for women.

and come out with stuff like "off you go then" "why are you still here?" etc

As I remember, those comments were to posters who said they find MN offensive. One would wonder why you stayed, if the experience was so awful.

Kind of ironic/hypocritical really when posters on here try to shut down other women by insulting them, patronising them (presumably in the hope they'll go away?) and come out with stuff like "off you go then" "why are you still here?" etc

Well, Roses, if the environment here is as hostile as you seem to think it is why would anyone remain in such an environment?

So I can't comfortably witness a trans woman being sent to use the men's toilet. I think that would be potentially distressing for that person.

But what if their presence is distressing for other women? You might be happy with them in there with you, but other women might not be.

@EarlyWalker
If you genuinely have an issue with trans woman being on a separate wing within a woman’s prison, segregated from woman there, then the issue is with you - not them

OK, if that's the case that transwomen are segregated and kept away from biological women on a separate wing, I'm also failing to understand why that'd be a problem then? The way people make it sound on here is that they're both mixed in together.

No, neither does being born female. Yes, men commit more crimes but we cannot make spaces completely risk free. And if my daughter ever came out with the ‘ladies toilets is a space space’ bollox, I would put her straight. Given my experiences of toilets, I’d say you’re probably far more likely to be beaten up or robbed by a group of girls in there than you are to have a transwoman try and attack you.

But this is just incorrect. Men are far more likely to commit violent crime than women.

In terms of getting beaten up in the toilet, it's because, up until now, only women are in female toilets! That's a question of geography, not statistics.

Having gender dysphoria doesn't affect the risk profile of a man, in any way. So your criteria for allowing them access to women is based on what you perceive as their commitment to their mental condition. Rather than any risk that the women might have to put up with.

Your desire to validate the men in this scenario, is greater than your desire to protect the women or take them into account.

And this is something I profoundly disagree with.

Yes, of course. But there's nature and there's social constructs. And there's the question of where our consciousness lies between those. It was long thought, and still is, that being gay was due to being socialised wrongly. But we now accept, without any actual change in the available evidence, that being gay is not a choice. In this same way, I'm willing to accept that being trans is not a choice. That there very well could be a predestined set up in the brain that means that your assigned sex feels strongly uncomfortable. Enough people have said so for me to accept it. So just telling them to get back in their box isn't an answer for me.

Oooh another corn dolly!

A quick google suggests that rehabilitation isn't effective. Misogyny is a tough but to crack as most of us know on here.

I don't believe that trans people physically transmute into another gender. But I also don't believe that it's an appropriate or correct description to say that they remain their former gender. A trans woman is clearly not a man.

I'm confused now. Do you mean sex or gender? And if a transwoman isn't a man, what are they? Because they can't change sex, so they're certainly not a woman.

OK, if that's the case that transwomen are segregated and kept away from biological women on a separate wing, I'm also failing to understand why that'd be a problem then?

Security is very different in women's prisons. They are not geared up to deal with issues that could arise by having males in the female estate.

This is why it is better to retain these people in the male estate but in a separate wing or even a separate prison building.

It was long thought, and still is, that being gay was due to being socialised wrongly. But we now accept, without any actual change in the available evidence, that being gay is not a choice. In this same way, I'm willing to accept that being trans is not a choice.

Same

I'm willing to accept that being trans is not a choice.

I disagree. Have a read of this article [posted earlier in this thread and reposted here for your convenience]:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Well, not a man or a woman. But somebody who should be treated like a woman in every respect. I genuinely don't have a problem with doing that. I have done it. It's no trouble for me at all. I'd feel deeply uncomfortable with doing any differently.

I don't agree with applying a strict binary. And it's obviously not working, because otherwise we'd have had this all wrapped up yonks ago. It's not possible to lump everybody into two groups in this instance. There has to be some compromise.

Oh honey, it worked for a long time. It worked very well for men in particular didn't it, applying a 'strict binary'?

And yet, now that women in parts of the world are finally making headway with their rights, finally gaining recongnition in sports, business, politics etc... Suddenly this whole 'binary' thing just doesn't work anymore apparently.

Strange ain't it?

It's not really for you to disagree with how other people feel though, is it? You couldn't possibly be in a position of authority to make a decision on how and why other people feel the way they do.

But somebody who should be treated like a woman in every respect. I genuinely don't have a problem with doing that. I have done it. It's no trouble for me at all. I'd feel deeply uncomfortable with doing any differently.

Do you understand that not everyone feels the same way as you do about this? Do their feelings count or only yours and the transwomen's?

That there very well could be a predestined set up in the brain that means that your assigned sex feels strongly uncomfortable.

I'm sure there is. No one disputes that. Some people are predisposed to find their limbs alien and uncomfortable. Or their dangerously low bodyweight.

It's a psychological condition. It's not a reality.

And there are two things to this.

Why do people get gender dysphoria, why? We know that the gender boxes are increasingly restricted and limited. We know that youngsters displaying gender nonconformity are wondering if they're the wrong sex.

And we know that gender is a hierarchy, with women at the bottom.

So the first thing is, we should not be accommodating the idea that people are the wrong sex, based on restrictive gender stereotypes.

And the second thing is, is that women are oppressed due to their biological definition, not their gender definition.

And therefore rights pertaining to that biological condition need to be ring fenced. Quite apart from the problems with why so many people are getting gender dysphoria.

As apparently, prosecuting gay people worked. In fact, it didn't. It merely covered up the presence of a lot of very unhappy people.

But somebody who should be treated like a woman in every respect.

Except for 'relationship purposes' obvs. Ask any beardy brocialist

jacky that is an incredibly bias source, do you think people are that stupid to blindly follow ‘facts’ as posted on a site with an obvious agenda?

datun where is the evidence that transwoman with a GRA put woman at risk in a bathroom?

Most people can see that gender dysphoria is a psychological condition in the context of too rigid gender norms in modern societies.

But somebody who should be treated like a woman in every respect.

Why do you treat med and women so differently? Why are you enforcing this gender binary?

jacky the fact you see being trans as a choice, makes your agenda and views perfectly clear anyway. Your mask is off.

datun where is the evidence that transwoman with a GRA put woman at risk in a bathroom?

I said they pose no less risk than any other man.

Why are you creating a sacred class of men, who are immune to a risk assessment, based on nothing?