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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Peak Transing

999 replies

Apollo440 · 12/07/2019 15:05

This thread on AIBU has been joined by some aggressive TRAs who are doing sterling work peak transing the more delicate areas of mumsnet.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3634784-to-not-want-to-sign-off-my-emails-with-preferred-pronouns

Real TWAW No debate or your c*nts type. Carry on I say!

OP posts:
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BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 13/07/2019 11:17

Yes, my reason is to encourage a more moderate and open debating style in future

Grin

from the person who said this

I'm not getting into debates with you about this subject. It's pointless

Datun · 13/07/2019 11:18

Yes, my reason is to encourage a more moderate and open debating style in future so that we can actually engage with each other in future.

Okay.

One of my fundamental objections to the trans ideology is claiming that men are actually women.

One of the consequences of this is convicted sex offenders being sent to female prisons.

I find it extraordinary that in 2019 women prisoners are being subjected to the attentions of a male sex offender.

Is that something you can agree with?

JackyHolyoake · 13/07/2019 11:18

OK, Early ... the subject of this thread is Peak Trans so let's stick to that, eh?

I acknowledge this term makes you uncomfortable. That is regrettable, obviously, but the term is what it is. We have explained its meaning to you. If you are still uncomfortable with it perhaps it is best that you disengage from this thread to avoid such discomfort.

RosesAndRaindrops · 13/07/2019 11:18

I wasn't referring to you, roses

I know you weren't but I was just pointing out that when you say you want discussion you've made it perfectly clear you don't want it however wide eyed or innocent you seem to come across on this thread.

PetrolBastard · 13/07/2019 11:19

I'm not getting into any debate that starts with the question why do I hate women and want X horrible thing to happen to them. I don't hate women or want X horrible thing to happen to them. End of debate.

FamilyOfAliens · 13/07/2019 11:19

And what obvious reasons are those? You've got some great insult for me, I presume?

No, I don’t do insults. I would worry about any healthcare professional doesn’t “give a shit” about the differences between male and female bodies.

LangCleg · 13/07/2019 11:19

Generic ‘you’ lang, I don’t remember who says those things but it certainly happens on most threads.

Clarification welcome.

In which case, please don't use general accusations in posts directly quoting and speaking to me.

I regard it as goady and against talk guidelines.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 13/07/2019 11:20

Thanks Earlywalker. First of all, can I just ask in a bit more detail about your opinions? Do you believe that males should be able to

  • use women's toilets
  • use women's changing rooms
  • be admitted to woman's hospital wards
  • be on all women shortlists
  • be sent to women's prison
OldCrone · 13/07/2019 11:20

In what seemed to be a "thousands of people are all doing this" way - which people could think "oh god, yes all the people transing is terrible it's an epidemic" way.

So what do you think now you've seen the numbers, Roses?

Datun · 13/07/2019 11:21

I know you weren't but I was just pointing out that when you say you want discussion you've made it perfectly clear you don't want it however wide eyed or innocent you seem to come across on this thread.

No, you misunderstand I'm not interested in having a discussion with you. I know exactly what you think and why.

Datun · 13/07/2019 11:22

I'm not getting into any debate that starts with the question why do I hate women and want X horrible thing to happen to them. I don't hate women or want X horrible thing to happen to them. End of debate.

So you do not agree that those four women should have been subjected to the attentions of Karen White?

Do you think that Karen White should have been sent to the female prison, but somehow kept away from all the women, in that case?

Datun · 13/07/2019 11:22

Because, petrol, as the subject of this thread is peak trans, Karen White was instrumental in peaking thousands.

GirlDownUnder · 13/07/2019 11:22

OldCrone hopefully you'll get an answer where I've failed twice Smile

PetrolBastard · 13/07/2019 11:24

Ok. I do appreciate that there's an issue with the assignment of people to specific prisons. I think the answer is that where a prisoner, of any sex, is going to violently attack other prisoners, they should be segregated entirely. Thereby making it irrelevant whether they are in a man's or women's prison. But I don't think we should be automatically segregating people because of their gender identify. And I don't think we should be putting trans people into the general population of the prison to which they don't identify as a gender, because I think that's cruel. It's really something that needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.

FermatsTheorem · 13/07/2019 11:24

Because here's where the analogy with "peak Muslim" breaks down utterly. The BBC commissioned a survey a few years ago (I think partly as a response to all those dreadful Daily Mail/Express entirely fabricated scare stories about "Sharia courts in Britain"). Not surprisingly, most Muslims were quite happy with British law, hardly any wanted Sharia law, and women in particular tended to say they were very much in favour of divorces being handled under British law rather than Sharia, because British law gave women more equitable settlements.

Now, there are of course a handful of extremists - but they don't have the ear of government, they aren't pushing their extremist agenda on moderate Muslims and the broader secular society by a process of institutional capture.

I suspect that in social terms the trans community is similar. I suspect that transwomen like Debbie Hayton whose views are moderate are in the majority.

It's also the situation the law of the land (as opposed to its misinterpretation) currently allows for - the GRA creates the legal fiction of gender reassignment, and the Equalities Act of 2010 says that in most, but not all circumstances, the protected characteristic of gender reassignment entitles someone to be treated as the sex they identify into, rather than the sex they were born into. But (and this is the crucial but) sex is also a protected characteristic, and services and facilities can be sex segregated and exclude people with a GRA, where a proportionate need for single sex provision can be demonstrated.

This (going back to the religious analogy) is a sensible compromise. Rights of two separate groups of people are balanced, weighed up, and scope for dealing with conflicts of rights is left open for sensible legal judgement to be made. (I know there are feminists here who disagree with me on this, and think even the GRA is a step too far, but pragmatically it's a compromise I can live with.)

But here's the thing - it's the extremists, the TWAW in all circumstances adherents, who are pushing the legislative agenda and succeeding in institutional capture. This is why we are ending up with male-bodied rapists like Karen White being placed in women's prisons, with West Yorkshire Police harrassing people for opinions on twitter (not threats of violence, simply opinions). That's why people talk about "peak trans" - because the legislative agenda is not being driven by the sensible, middle of the road majority, but in this instance by extremists.

TheInebriati · 13/07/2019 11:26

PetrolBastard The only possible compromise between womens rights and trans rights is the third space option. Do you support it? If not, why not?

Datun · 13/07/2019 11:28

It's really something that needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.

But how do you see that actually working?

Over 60% of the women in prison our sexual assault/rape survivors.

At the moment, 1 in 50 male prisoners is identifying as a woman. And that rises to 1 in 10 if they are from the travellers community.

Do you understand that when there is no criteria for identifying if someone is either a risk, or transgender, it's unworkable to put them into a female prison.

Not to mention the fact that even considering it utterly disregards all the women in that prison. Rape survivors should not be forced to be imprisoned with men.

PetrolBastard · 13/07/2019 11:29

I've got nothing against the idea of a third space. It's a nice compromise. But it's impractical to implement. So for that reason, it's only ostensibly going to resolve things.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 13/07/2019 11:29

@earlywalker , I have to go and spend time with my DC now Shock , so if I don't get back to you straight away when you reply, I'm not ignoring you, I'm just doing my approximation of being a good mother (a.k.a. taking them to the local ice cream parlour and filling them full of sugary crap)

Ereshkigal · 13/07/2019 11:30

It's really something that needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.

No. It isn't. Males should never be accommodated with women. As Datun said this is a privacy and dignity issue as well.

Earlywalker · 13/07/2019 11:30

I acknowledge this term makes you uncomfortable. That is regrettable, obviously, but the term is what it is. We have explained its meaning to you. If you are still uncomfortable with it perhaps it is best that you disengage from this thread to avoid such discomfort.

No I don’t accept that, and I won’t stop discussing things because you want me too. Language is important.

*Do you believe that males should be able to

  • use women's toilets
  • use women's changing rooms
  • be admitted to woman's hospital wards
  • be on all women shortlists
  • be sent to women's prison*

Firstly I don’t agree with self ID. I believe TW with GRCs should be able to use woman’s toilets and changing rooms with cubicles. R.e shortlists it depends on the category i suppose, I’m not sure exactly what you’re referring too there?

No I do not think TW should go to woman’s prisons but their should be specific wings within woman’s prisons for transwoman that are segregated.

PetrolBastard · 13/07/2019 11:32

I think a lot of things in our prisons don't work the way they should. But yes, I don't see any way of applying a blanket rule that wouldn't cause one or another difficulty. So, as much as it may be idealistic, assessing each case individually has to be the solution.

Ereshkigal · 13/07/2019 11:32

But it's impractical to implement.

That's too bad. Women are saying no. So the only other reasonable alternative is that all males use the male facilities.

OldCrone · 13/07/2019 11:33

A person who believes their sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex?

How is believing you were born in the wrong body any more crazy than believing a big guy in the sky created the world and watches everyone?

For me, both are equally crazy. Leaving aside what is meant by 'sense of personal identity and gender', which also need definition, there is a major difference in what is going on regarding religion and transgenderism.

For a true comparison to be made between the two, Muslim people (or Christians, Jews, Hindus...) would have to be trying to convert the whole world to their religion, and forcing everyone to comply with the rituals and requirements of that religion. If they were doing this, I think people might actually start reaching peak religion.

Datun · 13/07/2019 11:34

I've got nothing against the idea of a third space. It's a nice compromise. But it's impractical to implement. So for that reason, it's only ostensibly going to resolve things.

We managed to implement disabled toilets, after a lot of campaigning. I see no reason that some toilets cannot be designated mixed sex for those who want them.

Trans wings in prison are already a thing. But it would appear, they are not being used much.

I really don't think there are many people who would agree with Karen White in a female prison, I have to say.

But that is where the reluctance to acknowledge the transwomen are men, will lead us.

When you're determined to find no difference, it's hard to step back once you realise the implications.