Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

So you'd be an "opt in" Lass

And again how would that be possible- given you think men should not be allowed in this field? You have posted several times that they are stealing jobs from women.

I think that consent to invasive procedures generally (sweeps and other internal exams) is often ignored when it comes to labouring women. This happens with both male and female medical personnel. While mothers may find it more traumatic when male personnel are involved I think it’s important to note that female personnel are often equally culpable. In the UK with midwife led care this happens a lot. Read threads on here where women have begged midwives to stop/remove their hand and been ignored. There are always a lot of women on the threads minimising what happened and using that ‘well you got a healthy baby and that’s what matters’ trope. It’s an institutional attitude that views pregnant women as less capable of decision making, dismisses what they say ( I don’t mean ‘birth plans’ that are no longer practical but levels of pain etc) and considers objections as fussing.

I do think that the particular example you’ve linked to on here is not the best one to choose to illustrate this problem. Someone who is very hostile towards and untrusting of medicine and medical personnel before they ever set foot in the hospital, being admitted at 33 weeks in an emergency situation in a very litigious country is a minefield for every professional involved.

This idea that if you and the baby are healthy, then that's all you need and job done. It's true but at the same time, half the mums around here are on antidepressants and crying every day is normal.

Of course there are other factors, but birth trauma is an everyday word. It's not at all surprising when women say it was horrific and they can't face having more children. why should that be normal?

"There are always a lot of women on the threads minimising what happened and using that ‘well you got a healthy baby and that’s what matters’ trope."

Because there's nothing you can do. It makes sense to put it behind you. It's not because of minimizing mothers capabilities, it's just pragmatic.

Also, I suppose it's like ordinary abuse in that you can feel guilty when you receive it. It's very common. I mean, I felt like a failure for not being a happy birth mother. So, it can help to try and just minimize it.

@sakura184 thanks for this thread. I never thought of it in those terms, naming the experience. But yeah you are right. Birth is so intense and meaningful, there should be words for it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10827105/Fears-new-guidance-on-births-will-increase-baby-deaths.html

The Netherlands isn't quite as rosy as the OP makes out.

And I assume she is aware of the problems with midwife led units in the UK?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/20/shrewbury-baby-scandal-maternity-unit-expands-100-cases/amp/

It’s interesting that you say that about other abuse. When an OP about birth trauma brings out those kind of responses I’ve viewed it as insensitive but I hadn’t considered that the posters making those comments may have suffered their own trauma and used minimising as a defence mechanism. You see similar reactions towards sexual assault with other women minimising it because to acknowledge how awful it is would be to acknowledge the awful thing that happened to them.

Lass I'm sorry but you're not even reading the thread. We've gone over opt ins.

And "Gaia woo woo" to describe women centric, women led, feminist birth practices. How progressive of you

Breathlessness

Yes we discussed misogynistic midwives downthread

Home birth is a very dangerous choice, unfortunately

It needn't be at all.....& in fact there is far more likelihood of unnecessary intervention in a hospital setting.

@Breathlessness

Yes I'm sure there are lots of motivations for the, frankly, anti feminist posts on here.

I try to be patient

It's like if you admit this is messed up, then what else do you have to admit is messed up. Nobody likes opening the Pandora's box. And most women don't want to go there.
Don't blame them to be honest. Life was easier for me before I was a feminist.

We probably need a whole thread on this. And then if feminism is pointless anyway because we can't change anything because men are too powerful anyway, then what's the point of wasting energy on it at all.

I guess for me, I just see value in a good chat. That's all I'm after these days. And I regard the derailing, mansplaining and anti feminist comments as an irritating interruption to a good chat with other women

For these reasons, I’d hate a female-only gynae system

But this conclusion is not based on reason, but on your own particular birth experience - which, like all, is highly emotive and personal.

Homebirth is the safest choice

It’s always worth talking about. The way women’s pain is dismissed by the medical profession generally, the way that pregnancy seems to make our experiences of our own bodies even less valid in the eyes of medical professionals. The fact that even systems that are female dominated (like midwifery in the UK) are far from immune to those attitudes.

www.health.harvard.edu/blog/women-and-pain-disparities-in-experience-and-treatment-2017100912562

@Maniak
I don't know if you remember the author Rachel Cusk? She was popular about 10 years ago and wrote a fictional book called "Of Woman Born" (IIRC), a series of short stories. I read it shortly after giving birth to DD.
It was a kind of comedic book, made me laugh anyway with its black humour. She said at the ante natal or mother and baby groups she went to women seemed unable to talk about their births. Like rabbits caught in a headlights or something. It was something they physically could not do

@Breathlessness

Yes I think it's so important for women to have the chance to talk about this and I do believe the constant interruptions to this thread mean that it is a topic of a political nature. What's that phrase--, to find out who has power over you, first find out who you are not allowed to criticize

Homebirth is the safest choice

That is your biased opinion.

No, homebirth is not always the safest choice. That, in and of itself, is a misogynistic statement.

Every woman is different. Every pregnancy is unique. Our goals, desires, and medical histories all vary. THIS SHOULD BE RESPECTED.

For some women, a home birth is the right option. For others, a birth center or hospital. Some women need planned c-sections. We deserve the right to have options for care that is personalized AND appropriate.

Pain control during labor should be offered to women, (with full disclosure of risks). To suggest otherwise is the ultimate patriarchal tactic; we are bearing the pain from the sin of Eve and it's a woman's honor, blah, blah, blah. It's 2019. We can do better for women and we should.

Lass I'm sorry but you're not even reading the thread. We've gone over opt ins

No- you paid lip service amongst your many posts going on about men stealing women's jobs. You have ignored how the opt in would apply - given if you had your way and men were kept out of it.

And "Gaia woo woo" to describe women centric, women led, feminist birth practices. How progressive of you

Why are you referring to being "progressive"? What an irrelevant point. The sort of "women centric etc etc, you seem to be advocating sounds grim. My opinion.

I guess for me, I just see value in a good chat. That's all I'm after these days. And I regard the derailing, mansplaining and anti feminist comments as an irritating interruption to a good chat with other women

You are chatting with other women. You don't like what someone of them are saying.

Your repeated claims of "derailing " and "mansplaining" "anti- feminist comment" (synonym for "doesn't agree with me") "interruptions " are misogynistic.

Justhad of course it’s based on my experience. But any look on any midwife thread here will tell you I am far from alone in this experience.

Because I’m basing my wishes on my experiences, does that make my wishes irrelevant? Or should we only pay attention to women who want female-only birth centres and disregard those whose experiences wish for something else?

I was thinking about this this afternoon and the logistics around it. So often when birth experiences are discussed, women will say they had problems with female midwives. Anyone I’ve spoken to about all girl schools are against them as they encountered ‘cattiness’ when they went. Girl on girl / woman on woman personal attacks are everywhere on social media, at the school gates, between family members. Is it wise, therefore, to have all female birth centres? I’d love to believe in ‘sisterhood’ but in many people’s reality, it doesn’t exist.

I also recalled a conversation with a lady from my antenatal classes - she was a nurse who had done rotation on gynae and was horrified by the midwives’ attitude to women in labour - she recalled them laughing at the state of their pubic hair.

The thing is @InglouriousBasterd the default is hospital birth with men around, and men involved in your care.

I'm looking at alternatives for women who want alternatives.

An alternative would be female led women only birth centers which should be freely available for those women who want them

I suppose mainstream thought is that hospital birth is best and it's fine if a woman is treated by a man against her will as long as the baby is okay

I'm just offering and considering alternatives to mainstream malestream thought

The US does have an appalling maternal mortality rate, but anyone claiming to know this is because of their more medicalised approach is bullshitting. They have a birthing population who are more obese (I'm overweight myself fwiw) and in poorer health than any other similarly developed countries, and because of their healthcare system, there are women who enter pregnancy with chronic conditions they haven't necessarily been able to access proper treatment for. Of course these things are going to lead to more of them dying. They essentially start way behind other wealthy countries.

Also, look at what the actual top causes of maternal mortality in the US are. Commonest is embolisms. How exactly is that helped by a less medicalised approach?

It's just not correct that hospital births are better for an otherwise healthy pregnancy. The cascade of intervention can cause problems which lead to c section and countries with a high c section rate have a high maternal death rate due to the c sections.

I've never once said a homebirth is better for every single case. Not once did i suggest that but when you say homebirth is better people love to jump on the high risk cases as "proof" hospital is best