Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

@SweetMelodies yes agree with that. It's the lack of care for the feelings of the birthing mother that creates the problem. And yes yes to feeling railroaded into allowing whatever examinations they deem appropriate.

I was blessed with a wonderful midwife in labour (a student one) who had absolute no qualms about asking the doctors to hold off touching me until she had explained what was happening and made sure I was comfortable with it. It all went to pot a bit once DD crashed, but at that point I was so ill I was beyond caring. That doesn't mean that I don't recognise that choice and respect for women in childbirth should be non-negotiable.

Interestingly, the most inhumane care I got during the entire experience was from midwives in the postnatal ward. Some of them should have been ashamed of how they treated the vulnerable women in their care.

@SweetMelodies

That is exactly what I'm talking about. It shouldn't even be something a laboring woman has to consider. I've said before, we're not here to provide men with jobs.
I also don't know why, but I do understand why, women who talk about birth trauma say "and I haven't been sexually abused/assaulted". Like we can only be taken seriously if we have been the victim of a precious assault because a man putting his fingers in us or even just interrupting birth with his mansplaining isn't allowed to be regarded as a violation in its own right

But the issue was with them being cruel and unprofessional, not with them being female.

Whereas the male dr who treated me was perfectly fine and competent and kind, but the fact he was male is what made me uncomfortable. And that’s something that cannot be changed.

@InglouriousBasterd - yes to cruelty, that was what I experienced in the postnatal ward. I ended up discharging myself and going home because it was so cruel.

InglouriousBasterd

I know I do expect some "women do it too" arguments as well as "namalt".

I've heard about misogynistic midwives. I personally am suspicious of midwives who have never given birth themselves for example ( this automatically excludes all men from the profession doesn't it). I'm sure some evil power hungry misogynistic women are drawn to this profession but if the entire profession was female centric and les misogynistic then these women would be routed out

Also, the benevolent male is classic patriarchy. A sort of psychological undermining if you like inflicted on all women who are Stockholmed to the hilt. If you want to Stockholm a woman to men as a class, hit them with a benevolent male during or after childbirth.
I just don't think men should be there

But SweetMelodies, that’s my personal experience. I now no longer trust female gynaecologists, just like women who distrust male gynaecologists. Should my preferences be ignored because they don’t favour women? An all/female gynae ward would be my worst nightmare, and as a female my preferences and wishes would be denied.

Just offering a different perspective.

No that's fine @InglouriousBasterd , I think you should be able to opt for men if that's what you prefer. I don't see why the whole set up isn't about catering to what women want and need.

I mean really what else is there?

But I think it's a major issue that women who want to escape men and don't want them anywhere near us during labour and birth and gynecology aliens up coming across them because they're absolutely everywhere

I want a professional who is respectful and competent but also female.

There are deep-rooted problems of misogyny in maternity care imo, a lot of that probably derived from the fact it was traditionally led by male doctors who dominated birthing women and also a reflection of society as a whole and lack of giving a damn about female healthcare issues.

We can work on trying to improve the system and the way women are treated during labour/childbirth/postnatally.

But if a woman is uncomfortable with a male then nothing will change that. Doesn’t matter how well he does his job, he is a male and can’t change that nor how she feels.

last comment before I run out - taking InglouriousBasterd's comments on board, the answer has to be about offering women meaningful choice of who attends them.

"End up" not "aliens"

Ithink you should be able to opt for men if that's what you prefer

But according to you the mere presence of a man means a woman has been kept out of a job. You are obsessed with the idea that only women should be allowed to work in this field.

You post we're not here to provide men with jobs.

I certainly would not want to be treated by any female medical professional displaying the attitude you do.

Thing is, this is why transwomen keep suing domestic violence shelters isn't it. There are some areas that women want to keep all- female ( with maybe an opt-in for women like @InglouriousBasterd who'd prefer a male ob/gyn).
I just don't think a man near you in birth ( apart from a spouse) is something a woman should have to negotiate. Just like a woman suffering from DV or rape trauma shouldn't have to even consider the possibility of a transwoman in those particular circumstances

I think the problem is- always having a choice between a female or male is probably unrealistic.

Most women who prefer males would generally be fine with a female dr who was kind/competent/respectful.

Women who want a female dr often don’t care about how amazing and competent and kind a male dr is. They simply just don’t want a male dr treating them. Even if a male attends to them and is as kind/respectful as possible they are still going to be traumatised by the sheer fact he is male.

Out of all the women who have been abused sexually the vast majority will have been victim to a male.

Also out of all the women who have a preference... the vast majority are going to prefer female dr.

Sakura that’s an interesting idea actually, that the cruel ones are routed out. As I said, I’m just going off my experience.

I would say that if I was treated with kindness and respect by the women in the first place, the appearance of the male would not have had any effect. The male consultant in this case quite clearly had a greater respect and empathy for me than any of the women - he mentioned he’d watched his wife labour several times and was always in awe of the strength of women.

I don’t know. I’m just giving my experience - I’m not sure there is a right or wrong answer to this one; just a need for more understanding of preferences, greater empathy and respect.

Agree with everything you said Sweet

Maybe there should be a proper review system of medical staff then @InglouriousBasterd . Nothing too taxing for the woman who has just given birth, just a few tick boxes so we can rate our care. And then the nasty ones lose their jobs

I just managed a massive cross post!! Didn’t see all the other comments! But definitely agree that an opt in at least needs to exist.

Sakura that would be a great idea. They definitely do it on other wards on discharge - but never on gynae, wonder why?!

I do think women should definitely be offered all female hospitals and clinics. I think this should just be taken as a given.
And then the women who might prefer a man treating them can have that as well

This idea that the baby could die. It's an easy way to control women. You don't want your baby to die do you? Or even, the heartbeat is weak. Like, how could the woman in the article object to a surprise vaginal examination when her baby's life was at risk? When often things could be done differently or the risk is tiny.

But not only that, the effects on the mother's thinking can be really deep. Here is an article about how the way mothers' experience of birth can affect their relationships with the children longer term. I think this is true.

www.newyorker.com/science/elements/the-durable-feeling-that-a-child-is-always-at-risk

And then the women who might prefer a man treating them can have that as well

And how does that work? Given your several repeated claims that any man in this field has taken a place which should have gone to a man. Your posts are extremely illogical. Your stance would actively deny women a choice.

*@Maniak *
This idea that the baby could die. It's an easy way to control women

Completely agree with this and think male ob/gyns use it all the time. "We needed to give you an episiotomy to save the baby" in countries with an almost universal episiotomy rate. Whereas midwives have been trying to fight to get rid of the episiotomy because it just does so much damage to women, and is so hard to heal from, and doesn't have any affect on the infant survival rate. Ina May Gaskin wrote a lot about her work bringing awareness about the uselessness of episiotomies.
Some male ob/gyns are still certain the female body can't deliver a baby without being cut

For these reasons, I’d hate a female-only gynae system

I would too. It's only anecdotal of course but my experience was the male gynaecologist I saw about painful and heavy periods was helpful, kind , sympathetic and came up with a solution. The female gynaecologists at a supposed "Well Woman" clinic was exactly the opposite.

Someone got told off on here about referring to "Gaia woo woo". I expect I'll get told off but a lot of this "female led, let's all be natural" strikes me like that. I would hate it.

So you'd be an "opt in" Lass.