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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

999 replies

sakura184 · 12/07/2019 01:28

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

OP posts:
Aaarrgghhh · 17/07/2019 19:38

Just checking I’ve made it clear enough that your own personal choice is perfectly fine, just don’t want it made out that I’ve said something different again.

sakura184 · 17/07/2019 19:42

Aaarrgghhh

For the umpteenth time I shouldn't have to justify my preference for a female HCP. It should just be accepted. There are any number of reasons why a woman doesn't want a man near her in birth and for intimate procedures.
I've tossed out a few reasons, off the top of my head.
Can you tell which men enjoy dodgy porn and which don't? Because I can't. Does it matter if a man who gets off on weird stuff is examining me? Yes, yes it does

OP posts:
loopsdefruit · 17/07/2019 19:43

Failure to access antenatal care or follow medical advice would absolutely be taken into account during an Unborn assessment. It's an indicator of your ability to prioritise the health needs of your child.

Like I said, I'd rather HCPs made referrals that never went anywhere than we missed vulnerable children because they didn't bother.

The consultant didn't make a referral though, he just threatened to. That is inappropriate. You either have concerns or you don't and if you then you report those concerns you don't threaten the family that you will.

The other story in the article the social workers acted entirely appropriately. There was a concern due to a problem with birth registration which was followed up. Sounds like the mother was evasive which raised the level of worry.

Social workers aren't scary and they don't have the power to remove children, only a court can do that and it would require evidence of harm. If you're doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.

What about the baby in all of this? Are pregnant mothers not usually pretty concerned about the health of their baby? Or is it all about their birth experience?

sakura184 · 17/07/2019 19:47

So for you personally you should always refuse, again that’s okay. Banning them from specific areas is too far.

Is it? Is it too far?
Because some women are saying they prefer men to carry out intimate procedures on them?
. I'm not sure what I think about that. Should this preference be indulged? Are men indulged when they specifically ask for a female doctor to carry out and intimate procedure, when the only one who appears available is a man?

Like i say, i personally think this field should be all female.

But Anyway, I don't really care . Some women are obviously enamoured with men to the point that they would actually prefer a male midwife or doctor.

OP posts:
sakura184 · 17/07/2019 19:49

What about the baby in all of this? Are pregnant mothers not usually pretty concerned about the health of their baby? Or is it all about their birth experience?

We've gone over this so many times.
The "you've got a healthy baby what more do you want" patriarchal model is being criticized and rejected by midwives

OP posts:
Aaarrgghhh · 17/07/2019 19:49

Okay I’m getting frustrated now. I never ever said you had to justify your fucking reasons. I too am weary of men. I’ve been raped three times by different men, I was also abused for ten years from the age of eight by a male, one I should have been able to trust. I don’t ever expect a woman to justify being weary of men, ever. Is that fucking clear enough now?

Aaarrgghhh · 17/07/2019 19:51

Rarely does a woman prefer a man fs. We just want medical help when it’s needed by someone trained, whether they be male or female. Can you seriously not read properly?

ZebrasAreBras · 17/07/2019 19:53

Failure to access antenatal care or follow medical advice would absolutely be taken into account during an Unborn assessment

No, it's not.

A woman has an absolute right to an unassisted pregnancy and birth.

Failure to access antenatal is not, in itself, a reason for a referral.

Aaarrgghhh · 17/07/2019 19:53

I’m not going to lie, if I have another baby their health is paramount. I guess that’s because I’ve seen the worst and it was horrible, so I would never risk a baby that I want for my own needs. Sounds awful but if a man checking my cervix can help deliver my baby safely and I didn’t ring or talk to someone before hand that I only want a female, then damn right I’m going to suck it up and accept a trained male to deliver my baby safely.

All of what I have said is for me personally, I am allowed my opinion as you are yours and my opinion doesn’t deny you yours. Can’t believe I have to make this clear with each comment.

sakura184 · 17/07/2019 19:54

Actually to be fair I retract that statement about women being enamored with men. I know women can be misogynistic bitches and coming across one of these during birth would make you think any man would be better.
So i retract that. We should keep a few men on hand for the women who prefer men.

But the default should be female for sure

OP posts:
Aaarrgghhh · 17/07/2019 19:55

One person has said they prefer men, why are you assuming we all prefer men? I just want whoever is avails to help that has the required training. I don’t care about genitals when me or my baby could be dying.

Aaarrgghhh · 17/07/2019 19:56

The default already is female, at least that’s my experience in the UK.

ZebrasAreBras · 17/07/2019 19:57

The "you've got a healthy baby what more do you want" patriarchal model is being criticized and rejected by midwives

Yes exactly.

This has been analysed - the NHS prioritises the "healthy baby outcome" at the "least cost to the health service". In this, it can happen that the woman giving birth is forgotten - her rights to decision-making, to bodily autonomy, are forgotten and dismissed because "she got a healthy baby".

It is not good for women, and bad maternity care is linked to PND, and worse.

sakura184 · 17/07/2019 19:58

Aaarrgghhh

I'm sorry about what happened to you, I don't know what to say

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2019 19:58

Why are we teaching women, who have had near death experiences at the hands of intimate partners, to trust men again, so that they go on to have another intimate relationship with a man? When we know the evidence tells us that a woman is most likely to be hurt raped or killed by an intimate partner.

Who does it serve to teach traumatized women that their instincts are, in fact, wrong think, and these thoughts must be overcome ?

Thats not what anyone is saying or suggesting be taught.

There are plenty of ways to give women power back in their lives rather than pursue a separatist lifestyle.

And to be able to have a healthy relationship with a man in the future rather than avoiding men for the rest of your life. If that's what you want.

I refer to my point about avoidance behaviour.

Since when does having a traumatic life threatening relationship in the past which has destroyed trust in men and done psychological harm mean that for the rest of your life you need to be ruled by the fear of the man that did that to you rather than finding and a future with someone who genuinely makes you happy?

That seems to be what you are suggesting.

It's harm to yourself to not look at ways to relieve the trauma and develop coping strategies for the harm that you've suffered and to miss out on good things that do come in life because of the bad things that did.

That's letting the fear control you.

You are always going to have that experience stay with you and it will affect you in some ways. The point is to not let it utterly control every single part of your future either.

It's not the same as actively exposing yourself to the same issues and risks and being doomed to repeat the worst of your experiences.

Yes, learning to trust to a certain extent again is a part of that process. Its not an easy thing to do. No one says it is.

But avoiding life entirely and everything it brings is a demonstration of severe anxiety. It might come from real or imagined circumstances. A phobia can be both or either - the irrational part of it, is the treating everything as a threat rather than putting it into context and being able to assess the scale of that risk under those specific circumstances. The trauma part is where you cant separate that past knowledge or experience from current or future situations.

Nothing will help you heal completely or free you from it completely. It will always be there. But I do think you can make a conscious decision to choose what type of future you can have and to what degree your past inhibits the choices you make in relation to a traumatic experience and that is connected to recognising mental health issues that result from that experience and finding treatments to relieve that.

ZebrasAreBras · 17/07/2019 20:00

Birthrights have reported on, and criticised this model for it's poor outcomes for new mothers - and they have criticised attitudes like Loops, that women are not to be trusted to make their own decisions in pregnancy and labour, or that women's refusal of medical interventions is a safeguarding issue. It isn't, in itself.

loopsdefruit · 17/07/2019 20:02

Zebras, you are incorrect.

www.proceduresonline.com/LimitedCMS_centrally_managed_content/swcpp/shared_files/app1_risk_unborn.pdf

"A referral to children's social care MUST be made if:

Where there are maternal risk factors e.g. denial of pregnancy, concealed pregnancy, avoidance of antenatal care (failed appointments), non-co-operation with necessary services, non- compliance with treatment with potentially detrimental effects for the unborn baby." (my emphasis).

This referral might not go anywhere, but it is required.

ZebrasAreBras · 17/07/2019 20:03

I’m not going to lie, if I have another baby their health is paramount. I guess that’s because I’ve seen the worst and it was horrible, so I would never risk a baby that I want for my own needs.

Absolutely your right to accept all medical advice. But conversely, it is also a woman's right to refuse it, without judgement, or being treated by a criminal.

I also accepted all medical advice and antenatal care. It's a woman's individual decision.

sakura184 · 17/07/2019 20:03

It is not good for women, and bad maternity care is linked to PND, and worse.

It's also patriarchy at its finest. By patriarchal thinking, and law, we are just vessels for producing males. It's our central purpose.

Never mind that we love our DDs as much as we love our DSs , patriarchy regards us as sort of conduits for producing males. It's why men hate abortion, because it's the thought that we might be "killing" a male, whereas women don't see themselves in that way-- we don't hate abortion because a woman might be killing a "female" like us, do we.

Plenty of doctors reflect this attitude, of having gotten a perfect product, no matter the cost to the woman.

That's why I love midwives. The mother is always central to the birthing process in midwife- led care. So the baby's health is important but so is the mother's

OP posts:
ZebrasAreBras · 17/07/2019 20:04

Birthrights disagree, loops. And their interventions have resulted in women's complaints being upheld.

loopsdefruit · 17/07/2019 20:05

Also not saying a healthy baby is ALL that matters, but the baby's health should be paramount. Or would you like to explain to your profoundly disabled child that maybe they would have been ok if you had sought antenatal care and not given birth in a field (or in the sea surrounded by dolphin midwives).

It's a real human here, not just some accessory to your perfect zen birth.

Birth is a means to an end (a child) not an end in itself.

ZebrasAreBras · 17/07/2019 20:05

Those procedures would not be upheld in law. Because a patient has a right to refuse all or any medical care.

ZebrasAreBras · 17/07/2019 20:06

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/oct/22/hounded-for-giving-birth-outside-the-system

Here's the article again.

ZebrasAreBras · 17/07/2019 20:07

medium.com/@doctorEm/why-disabled-women-requesting-female-only-intimate-care-is-not-disgusting-4b44a5d7436a

And here's why female care for women is critical.

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