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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

999 replies

sakura184 · 12/07/2019 01:28

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

OP posts:
Aaarrgghhh · 16/07/2019 16:13

Oh for fuck sake. So all that choice you keep saying we can have is bullshit then, you want no men at all because they can’t be trusted so you also want no choice. What about all the men already trained (of which there are few) we just tell them tough, you’ve wasted many years of education but you have a penis so no working with women, those who are okay with your presence that is. Even though some women don’t mind having a male look after them, they are wrong and should have the choice but there will be no choice because no men ever. Okay then..

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2019 16:26

I was utterly obsessive about childbirth and rights and being in control of it. It was something I researched extensively and actively tried to remove the emotion from because it was the very thing that harmed me. It made me unable to make informed and rational decisions, particularly in situations where I started to become distressed. I was lucky because I was able to recognise this was a problem, that hurt me more than anyone else.

I'm trying to share the knowledge I built up from the experience and to say that its really not black and white as you are desparately trying to make out.

I think I first started talking about this about 13 years or so ago on MN precisely because there was a huge taboo, and there were so few people talking about birth fear. The field and awareness of the subject has come on an unbelievable amount since then, largely helped by the 2009 NICE guidelines on ELCS which really first acknowledged the idea of birth fear (and also I believe did a lot to help women who DIDN'T want a ELCS and perhaps wanted a homebirth because it effectively legitimised the very idea that birth fear was a health condition which deserved to be treated rather than dismissed or belittled). The difference between pre-2009 and now is huge but the UK is still miles behind where it should be and approaches in some other countries.

The one thing that I learnt more than anything was everyone's fear is different and there are a whole range of difference needs and experiences over it. What was right for me, absolutely isn't right for someone else. And vice versa. What is key is how you approach that fear, how you deal with and good practice is about unpicking it through encouraging communication where nothing is off limits.

Over the years on MN I've tried to be very honest the whole subject, as it became apparent to me, that I felt a particular social pressure from other women over my 'lack of maternal instinct'. To admit this to other woman was hard because I thought I'd be dismissed as 'not being fit to be a mother'. I've read some really heartfelt posts from others in a similar vain, and just saying 'no you aren't unfit' and you have an issue which is grounded in mental health reasons which is legitimate and what you feel isn't as unusual or unique as you think, was hugely important. The 'if you don't believe you can give birth you aren't a proper woman' attitude was one I did come up against that from time to time, so I've got to say certain comments on here do make me think back on how I felt then and make me feel the need to push back on the idea that we 'should all think about birth a certain way cos we are women'.

I think for me, it is possible, that subconsciously social pressure did make it easier to approach a male midwife, because I didn't feel I was as likely to be judged in that particular way. Whether it was a real or imagined fear. Though this wasn't actively part of my thought process at the time.

The fact he was male was highly irrelevant to me as I was looking for a specialist in a particular area of care which really went against the culture and continues to be an area of high levels of ignorance.

Ultimately I wanted the speciality over and above the sex of the midwife, because that was my medical need at the time.

I personally am very glad that this particular midwife was there and willing to listen to me, as if it hadn't been for him I simply would not have a son.

For me its that simple. There was a specialist.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:29

Stop lying. It’s written in black and white that the op wants no men in the profession at all, ever because they might watch porn and be a rapist or get off on watching a woman give birth etc etc. Any man wanting to be a midwife is suspect, any man. Not some but any, all men

Well said, the blatant twisting and lying of things on this thread is insane,
It is REPEATEDLY on the thread.
Persistently and all the way through.
Read it and stop twisting.
I've never seen such a blatant attempt.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 16:29

As far as I'm aware, people don't get to choose the sex of their healthcare professionals, as in "would you like a male or female midwife?" - so this is not a "choice" I am denying anyone.

What people have is the right to request a HCP of the same sex as them - which women may want to do when it comes to intimate examinations.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:33

Oh for fuck sake. So all that choice you keep saying we can have is bullshit then, you want no men at all because they can’t be trusted so you also want no choice

This. It's not about the choice at all. It never was. It just got watered down slightly midthread to come across as more moderate and get people on board, along with a little bit of twisting words what people had said to make them seem like they'd said something they hadn't.
Original extreme views coming right back out now though.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:37

ops posts are highlighted green so also very easy to find and you can see where she has said these things repeatedly

@Aaarrgghhh Ooh, didn't know you could do that, is it in your setting or something? Would make it easier to see for others and for me in future to more easily find posts.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 16:39

It's not about the choice at all

Yes it is. The whole thread has been about a woman's choice to refuse a male midwife.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:40

What people have is the right to request a HCP of the same sex as them - which women may want to do when it comes to intimate examinations

Yes, and people have the choice to be seen to by a male if they want, or to not be segregated into female only hospitals etc.
Which we would be if the OP got her way.
I really, really don't see why this is so hard to grasp. Confused
No. She doesn't speak for all women, just like you don't, and we should ALL get to choose.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:45

Yes it is. The whole thread has been about a woman's choice to refuse a male midwife
Yes it has! And they should be able to. But why are you missing (on purpose,or what, as how can you be this hard of understanding?!) that to have NO men at all takes away others choices?!
I wouldn't like ONLY a choice of female hospitals as men weren't allowed near the women.
I'd feel like I was in Saudi Arabia or something.
Someone else has said on the thread that they wouldn't want female only hospitals either.
You don't get to make choices for other women.
You can choose to ask for a female, no-one has said otherwise, but you don't ban all men from being around women as you take the choice away from others.
It's really not hard to understand (you'd think so, anyway.)
Someone else on

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 16:45

Yes, and people have the choice to be seen to by a male if they want

Well, men can request a male HCP for intimate examinations. Women can request a female.

The choice is for a same-sex HCP.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:46

sorry, random bit tagged onto end of last comment

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 16:48

that to have NO men at all takes away others choices?!

But don't you see? Women don't have that choice - that choice is not in existence. I'm not "taking away a choice" - women aren't asked "would you like a male or female midwife?"

They may be asked "do you mind a male midwife?" if anything. To which they can reply "Not at all!" or "Actually, I'd prefer a female."

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:49

Well, men can request a male HCP for intimate examinations. Women can request a female.

You're doing it again. Missing what I'm saying. Or twisting, or both.
I never said men can't request a male HCP. Or that women can't request a female. They can.
You are completely failing to understand that other women DON'T WANT female only segregation.
Speak for yourself. Not others.
Not once in the bit I've just highlighted did you even begin to grasp or acknowledge other women.
Just decided for them.
Presumably because they don't know any better or "are into that sort of thing." Hmm
What you're doing is just as bad as men telling us what we should or shouldn't be doing.
You don;t get to choose or take choice away from others.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:49

to choose to take choice away from others that should read

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 16:51

They may be asked "do you mind a male midwife?" if anything. To which they can reply "Not at all!"

Which the OP has said no men ever. Repeatedly.
READ the thread. Properly.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 16:51

I'm talking about procedures that are in place at the moment, Roses.

There is no "choice" for a male midwife available for women at present. Very few are even in practice - the numbers of male midwives are very low.

If you want to advocate for women to choose a male midwife, then campaign for it. But I feel there are more pressing issues in maternity care.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2019 17:02

If you want to advocate for women to choose a male midwife, then campaign for it.

Ive not seen a post which has remotely suggested this.

(confused)

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 17:19

RTB, Roses seems to be saying I am taking away women's choices for a male midwife?

But why are you missing (on purpose,or what, as how can you be this hard of understanding?!) that to have NO men at all takes away others choices?!

I personally would like female-only care in childbirth, but I'm not suggesting that male midwives are run out of the hospital. Just that women can choose to not be treated by men.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 17:21

(confused)

You're not the only one Grin

I'm assuming the poster means we're wanting female only as the way forward (no that's a step backwards, not forwards) and anyone who doesn't want this, make your own campaign for the right to have males as well.
As in a round abouty way of we'd like to take the choice away but you're welcome to make your own campaign against it if you don't want it.
That's how I read it anyway.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 17:22

^Incidentally, that was not a choice I was given, or could freely exercise.

When I had DD3, a man entered the room, and without a word started stitching me up, while a female midwife (again, without a word) starting putting me on a drip.

So bad care all round, but I definitely did not want a man doing my stitches.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 17:22

I personally would like female-only care in childbirth, but I'm not suggesting that male midwives are run out of the hospital

OK, maybe you're not but you're agreeing with the OP who couldn't make it any clearer that's exactly what she wants.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 17:23

As in a round abouty way of we'd like to take the choice away

What choice am I taking away?

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 17:25

What choice am I taking away?

Oh FFS Grin
I give up.
READ. THE THREAD.
And stop twisting things. This thread's bonkers.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 17:26

Please read my comment again. Slowly and carefully please.
Maybe it might sink in a bit better, I mean WTF Confused

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 17:26

Come on, what choice am I taking away?

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