Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

If you know you haven't been taking illegal drugs, or have checked that any legal one are considered safe in pregnancy, then why refuse a blood test?

Even if you do take drugs they don’t test for them. It’s not automatically tested for. At least not in the UK.

It sounds like this male midwife thinks women who don't want his services are being sexist against him. Have I got this right?

Despite the fact that the word sexist has a power dynamic attached to it , the dynamic being males having power over females, it sounds like he's writing off women's preferences for a female as sexism which he can help her overcome by gaining her trust, instead of just letting her have the female midwife she clearly wants.

Men can be victims of sexism. I’d say you are pretty sexist in some ways. Women are more often the victim, granted but men can and do experience it. Especially in the form of stereotypes, much like women.

A male midwife who is asked not do an intimate examination on a woman, because she would prefer a woman to do it, is not the victim of sexism.

Are cries of sexism by a male midwife, against a woman who doesn't want his care, similar to cries of transphobia against lesbians who don't want to sleep with transwomen?🤔

Could be benign. Could be a sociopath learning how to ingratiate himself with women.

Wowzers, that is one huge jump. Man, so must be sociopath hiding and learning.
You and others seem determined to try and get all women to fear them.
What with the upthread "I suggest you don't have a male" (will try and find the comment but it's there) and now this.
Well it's not working.
I'm still never up for complete segregation.
Have your segregated wing for those who want it then those who want to mix still can.

Zebras, this is something of an ethical issue. My BIL and SIL are both doctors and its relevant to their job - particularly in an A&E and psych setting. I've had this conversation with them because of my extreme fears of HCP and wanting to know what my rights to refuse actually were.

You DO have a right to refuse treatment of any kind, but its not quite that simple and clear cut. There is a massive difference between a non-emergency situation and a emergency one. The case that sakura mentions is a non-emergency one in which it was able to go to court.

In emergency situations where a wish has been expressed and recorded ahead of time, then again its something that has been discussed between patient and doctors.

Where it gets tricky is emergency situations where there is no expressed wish ahead of time and the doctor may have some reason for concern about the mental health of the patient or about whether they are able to make an informed decision.

And this is the point, a doctor has to feel that a refusal of treatment is not only a refusal of consent but also based on informed decision making where they can fully demonstrate that the patient has full understanding of the implications of that decision.

In theory if there is a refusal, then the doctor is obligated to perhaps offer an alternative treatment or continue to extreme the severity of the situation to the patient in the hope they might change their mind. They have to do so being careful of whether they are applying undue pressure as also means that consent might not be being given freely.

It also might get more complex if they then find themselves in a situation where the patient is incapacitated and now unable to express a wish - if they feel that they have been unable to convey the severity of the situation to the patient.

Its a really grey area. If a doctor does go along with what the patient has said in this situation they might face disciplinary action for poor standards of care and neglect of duty to look after the physical and mental wellbeing, so they have to be absoluetely bloody sure that if they don't treat they can justify it. Yes they might face a complaint and disciplinary if they do treat but at least the patient is still alive to make the complaint.

As a rule, I believe they tend to intervene if they are concerned about the behavior of the patient and their mental health if there is no advance directive for this reason. It is the advance directive part that is important as it puts in writing that a person has had a fully informed discussion about a potential situation and the consequence in an environment where emotions aren't running high and decisions need to be made very quickly indeed.

Reducing it to saying 'well the patient said so' in a emergency situation could leave some vulnerable patients in a very dangerous position and could make it impossible for very good, professional and well intentioned doctors to practice at all.

Saying that you have a right to refuse treatment is overly simplistic and doesn't really cover the nuance of what that means in practice.

At one point I spent a lot of time trying to work out how I could legally has an expression of wish to avoid certain situations, such was the extent of my fears. Its not a healthy place to be, and yes it might well be a reflection of a mental health issue - like extreme anxiety in my case. This is where recognition of that ahead of time are so crucial and why an ongoing discussion over the subject between HCPs and patients is essential. In the end what I needed was not a directive, but support and understanding of my problems through communication. This involved thinking about alternative birth plans to the one I really wanted.

In the case of the woman in the OP, its probably the case (and I don't know) that this wasn't something that happened, and doctors might well have thought she / they were not able to make that judgment call in that emergency situation. From whats said in the article, I suspect she has been treated poorly in terms of attitude, but that does not mean the doctors acted unethically and unprofessionally in helping her, despite what she was saying either.

A male midwife who is asked not do an intimate examination on a woman, because she would prefer a woman to do it, is not the victim of sexism.

No he's not.
But he's framing it as though he is, to get women to comply. And learning techniques to get women to trust him...Okay, but what for?

What pregnant woman can be arises learning to trust a man when she could have a woman

arsed

But he's framing it as though he is, to get women to comply. And learning techniques to get women to trust him...

Sorry for the swear, but how the fuck do you get to that conclusion?
How do you know he's framing? Have you met the guy?
I mean, WTF.

Incidentally, I know lots of women have dreadful experiences with female midwives, (I'm one of them) but I wouldn't be surprised if that's a result of the pressures on the NHS, rather than because they're women.

This article is from 2013, but I don't imagine things have improved since then. theconversation.com/50-years-on-were-still-fighting-for-womens-childbirth-rights-15016

Note the 2 (male) obstetricians who basically say "the doctors know best" and that this overrides the woman's own wishes. Compare that to the (female) writer and researcher, and the female-led Birthrights, who advocates empowerment of women in childbirth.

Besides that, having to learn to trust a male midwife sounds like a lot of unnecessary emotional labour on the woman's part. It does sound like he's making it all about him.

I sort out this particular midwife cos he was the only person in the NW at the time who seems to be recognising childbirth fear. It was a massive relief to talk to ANYONE who took me seriously. In terms of 'emotional labour' he took that away from me and let me relax.

But you know, you keep on having a go at a guy you have NO idea about at all purely on the basis that he's male.

I find healthcare an area where this discussion is a bit weird, because the whole 'must be a woman' thing for maternity doesn't extend to other areas of practice. If you go to A&E for any number of conditions an intimate exam might be appropriate. And yes a lot of women would prefer a female to perform them and thats fine. Its just that we don't have the same conversation about sex segregated healthcare in other areas. Indeed thats regarded as really rather regressive (and places where it is actually happening aren't particularly progressive and good for women). I have to say that ultimately I don't get the argument for that reason, because HCP have to sign up to ethical codes and good pratice and go through years of training where they demonstrate that they are fit to practice and be trusted. Its not a job you can just walk into without a huge amount of scrutiny and continued oversight.

I don’t think it’s sexist in the slightest to prefer a health care professional of the same sex as you, and I don’t think many are making that case. Also I don’t think the Male midwife who was spoken off in such glowing terms was trying to get women who wouldn’t trust him to trust him, I think he was on a journey to increase his own empathy in a job where that particular quality is key.

You can ascribe ill-intent to practically anything, and I don’t think it’s entirely wrong to keep in mind bad actors in any scenario, but acting on a constant hair trigger will actually diminish one’s capacity to be effective and successful in the world. That’s as sure a fire as any for the patriarchy to keep any woman down, and the beauty of it is that it requires precious little upkeep and focus to maintain this stranglehold all that is required is to create more fear.

When you find hardline feminists working overtime to create more fear and distrust this plays more and more right into the patriarchal paradigm. If anyone is hell bent on pursuing that course by all means knock yourself out though.

The midwife who used the word 'comply' with me was female.

DH had to pretty much prise me off the ceiling when she did that.

It nearly destroyed any trust I had built up at all.

(She did realise her mistake pretty damn quickly and did a massive amount of backtracking - but it was a moment where she could have 'lost' me completely).

I think he was on a journey to increase his own empathy in a job where that particular quality is key.

This.

He very much wanted to improve the system for its users by improving communication across the board.

Its funny, because the research done in the area has very much followed the same track as he was following through his experience of practising.

Its worth remembering that institutionalised sexism doesn't just come from male practitioners. It can also come from females who buy into the tropes and attitudes - often because its easier to do so, that to challenge that and to develop new ways of approaching a particular subject (in fairness it might also be harder for women to be able to facilitate that, because they aren't respected as equals even though they are professionals and they aren't listened to when they raise concerns). Change is very hard to achieve in massive institutions like the NHS - and I have to say I respect anyone who manages at any level to actually achieve positive success in doing so.

Incidentally, I know lots of women have dreadful experiences with female midwives,

That's why I keep saying it's essential for a midwife to gain a rapport with a woman in pregnancy and if the woman doesn't line her she can request another.

Also a feedback system where the misogynistic midwives are routed out

Man midwife thought process

Woman prefers a female midwife = sexism

I honestly don’t think any Male midwife worth their salt thinks that a preference for a Female midwife is sexist. I think if anything they probably hold the bad men responsible for the climate within which we all live.

Its worth remembering that institutionalised sexism doesn't just come from male practitioners. It can also come from females who buy into the tropes and attitudes - often because its easier to do so, that to challenge that and to develop new ways of approaching a particular subject (in fairness it might also be harder for women to be able to facilitate that, because they aren't respected as equals even though they are professionals and they aren't listened to when they raise concerns). Change is very hard to achieve in massive institutions like the NHS - and I have to say I respect anyone who manages at any level to actually achieve positive success in doing so.

Absolutely true.

That's why I keep saying it's essential for a midwife to gain a rapport with a woman in pregnancy and if the woman doesn't line her she can request another.

Also absolutely true. And discussed in the article I linked to above - the best outcome for mother & baby is to have a good relationship with the doctors and midwives.

Any midwife (particularly a male one, when you've requested a female one!) coming into room, not introducing themselves, getting the gloves on and saying "I need to examine your cervix" is not likely to produce a good rapport.

A male midwife who is asked not do an intimate examination on a woman, because she would prefer a woman to do it, is not the victim of sexism.

It’s funny because, I didn’t say he was. But assuming any man in the profession is a porn addicted rapist is pretty damn sexist.

But assuming any man in the profession is a porn addicted rapist is pretty damn sexist.

Lucky nobody said that then. Nobody said "any man" - just talked about the issues of 1) the vast majority of sexual predators are men, and 2) sexual predators will work hard to enter a professions that gives them access to potential vulnerable victims.

Stop lying. It’s written in black and white that the op wants no men in the profession at all, ever because they might watch porn and be a rapist or get off on watching a woman give birth etc etc. Any man wanting to be a midwife is suspect, any man. Not some but any, all men. Also any doctors in other parts of the hospital that may be needed for an emergency, again all perverts getting off when checking a cervix and any man that wants to help a woman during birth and is trained to do so, has ulterior motives and is only there for the power play. That has been said and I do not need to point it out, to back and look, it’s all right there in black and white. ops posts are highlighted green so also very easy to find and you can see where she has said these things repeatedly.

Any man entering midwifery might watch porn, or be a sexual predator. But that doesn't mean all. Why are we back here again - at the any/all semantic argument?