Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

999 replies

sakura184 · 12/07/2019 01:28

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

OP posts:
RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 10:08

I took it to mean we're "into that sort of thing" as it's one of those sexual kick things that kept being mentioned!
Can honestly hand on heart if so say I've never got off on a male doctor looking at my bits, my mind honestly has never jumped there if that's what was meant by it!

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2019 10:19

For me there are three things that need to be considered here from a feminist point of view:

  1. A misogynistic health care system which doesn't centred women and can often led to poor communication, lack of proper informed consent and patronising attitudes to women. This is driven by ideology over evidence based medicine. It prevents discussion of a range of options and pushes women into situations and care pathways which don't suit their complex and very diverse needs.
  2. A defensive health care system which tends to lead to earlier intervention - which is the result of poor research in many areas of maternity care - because of the above mentioned ideological bias and because women's health is given second class treatment.
  3. Lack of staffing within maternity units because government won't fund it - again because of second class treatment - to the detriment of women's care.
  4. Lack of adequate understanding of birth fear and its causes. This is due to attitudes and ignorance. All the research I've seen on the subject (and I've read a LOT) points to a hell of a lot of things that come as a direct result of points 1,2 and 3 as well as a lack of understanding of the effects of trauma and abuse and how this impacts on childbirth.
  5. Lack of funding for training of staff - in particular removal of burseries - which particularly affects women because they tend to be more likely to go into nursing and midwifery.
  6. Staff and funding shortages leading to intolerable pressure on staff who are then leaving the field in greater numbers than they are being recruited. Which harms women in hospitals and women working in the field.
  7. Sexist attitudes which pressure women into particular fields in medicine, as they aren't regarded as 'good enough' or because of child care issues to be in certain fields. Gynocology and General Practice are the big two. This restricts the careers of women who are pigeonholed rather than encouraged to fulfil potential. It is true that women might well want to be cared for by women in childbirth; but that shouldn't come at the cost of restricting women's careers either. It simply means we need more female doctors to match demand and ways to enable women to pursue careers which are regarded as 'more ambitious'.

(As an aside to this, I note with that one of the reasons that men might be more attracted to gynocology might not be sexually based, but financially based. There is a lot of money to be made in private practice because of poor care within the NHS, ignorance in general practice of things like 'what is normal' and 'what women should put up with' with reference to birth injuries and lack of adequate funding for fixing women after childbirth. There is a hell of a lot of women who turn to private care for birth injuries because they just aren't getting the help they need from the NHS.)

There are so many factors going on here. I do think reducing it to the idea that it should be 'women who care for women' doesn't really help the situation on any level.

If anything it helps to drive the problem that if its a 'woman's problem' then its something men don't have to think about and something that can just be forgotten and neglected as an area of health. Because its 'not important as it doesn't affect us'.

As much as it might pain us to admit it, having a few male advocates in the mix who say 'this is our problem too, we all had mothers and this affects every man as a result' might well help change the dynamic. Thats not to say, the field should be dominated by men either. Nor that men should speak over or for women. Just that they might well have something additional to add that ultimately benefits us all.

(Another aside. My midwife went into birth fear as a speciality because of sexist attitudes because he was male. He felt that as a result he had to listen to what the women he was treating were saying particularly hard rather than just going along with the system as it was, in order to simply build relationships and be trusted. He was not granted this automatically in the same way as a woman. I do think it worth reflecting on how toxic masculinity negatively affects women not just directly through sexual abuse etc, but through the breakdown in trust and communication between men and women in general. Given that men in maternity feature as doctors and this isn't going to change, perhaps we need to reflect on ways that might help improve trust and communication across the board. Otherwise we really are looking at separatism and that might only serve to make social sexism worse not better. The point is there must ALWAYS be female consent for this and a woman can always say no - and there should be the resources available to enable this choice)

I don't know. I just see the issue from a number of different angles and considerations. And I think this entire thread has got bogged down in things which utterly neglect the reality of maternity services in this country.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 10:22

I just can't imagine a woman actively preferring a man examining her cervix. It was a throwaway comment, not to be taken seriously.

I can, however, definitely imagine a man getting off on physically examining women - because doctors have been convicted of such behaviour.

sakura184 · 16/07/2019 10:27

Let's definitely keep discussing semantics and let's definitely not at any cost discuss the possibly weird and dodgy motivations for men entering this profession or the possibility that it might attract predators.

Yeah Dervel, Women can have male professionals. Hmm I don't care if women do, but obv wanting a woman is a different category of choice than that of women who prefer men, any men, not merely specific doctors, to carry out intimate procedures on them.
I'm not saying women can't have men , I'm just not sure it's a legitimate choice in the same way that wanting a woman is a legitimate choice because of the sheer amount of perpetrators and sexual predators being men, which we have stats on.

And NAMALT and WDIT are not arguments. Those points are anti feminist derailing.

I have been shamed on this thread for preferring women. I dread to think how women in labour are treated in hospitals for stating this preference. The article I linked to gives us a good idea.

OP posts:
ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 10:35

It's not the first thread this has happened to, Sakura. Unfortunately any thread discussing women-led, women-centred intimate care for women brings a plethora of posters offended on behalf of the men.

Aaarrgghhh · 16/07/2019 11:12

Are you deliberately not understanding what me and others are saying? Wanting female led care is fine. I’ve asked for women myself. If however in an emergency like the woman in the post that started this thread, of which you keep changing what it’s about.. if no woman is available to care for you and you want all men banned from the practice, what the fuck do you do? Let the woman succumb to what’s happening even at the detriment to her own health? Or do you have to be reasonable and say okay, at this moment in time me and baby are in danger, there is no female available to help but there is a man who is trained and ready to go, then of course I’m going to let the man help, would you seriously say you would refuse and just lay there potentially dying? This woman turned up in an emergency situation with no prior medical involvement demanding what wasn’t available, she was being unreasonable and unrealistic especially when added with other ways she acted. You keep saying we can choose men (not that any of us would just that if no woman available we would be fine with a male doctor, they go and get someone female to stand in anyway. But if you want zero men to have these jobs then how do women have a choice at all? You are making no sense and then lying about what we have said. It is all on the thread in black and white, within context all of my comments and others make sense and do not say what you suggest they do. Please, try and read more carefully because you are misunderstanding and then making out we have said things that we definitely haven’t.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 11:27

I have been shamed on this thread for preferring women

No, you have not, no-one has said anywhere that you shouldn't prefer women, it is absolutely your right to have one.
You seem to be ignoring that though!

Exactly Aaarrgghhh, are they misunderstanding on purpose, or what?!
I mean I can't say it any clearer!
It. Is. Always. Your. Right. To. Prefer. Women.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 11:27

if no woman is available to care for you and you want all men banned from the practice, what the fuck do you do? Let the woman succumb to what’s happening even at the detriment to her own health?

Hang on - what would you do in this situation then- force her to have her cervix examined by a man? That would be barbaric.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 11:29

You are making no sense and then lying about what we have said. It is all on the thread in black and white, within context all of my comments and others make sense and do not say what you suggest they do. Please, try and read more carefully because you are misunderstanding and then making out we have said things that we definitely haven’t

Exactly, you could even say it's an attempt to gaslight us, well it's not working.
It is there ON the thread, and as I said you don't get to twist it round and accuse me of saying things I haven't.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 11:33

If however in an emergency like the woman in the post that started this thread, of which you keep changing what it’s about.. if no woman is available to care for you and you want all men banned from the practice, what the fuck do you do? Let the woman succumb to what’s happening even at the detriment to her own health

Zebras - that's not how I read it at all (apologies if I'm wrong though)
How do you jump to "force her to have her cervix examined by a man" if there are no men there?!
I read Aaaargh as saying that if there's no women available at that moment and a shortage, what are you supposed to do, just suffer?

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 11:36

And I'm saying a woman has a right to refuse medical examination by a male, without being bullied for it, as in the case of the OP.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 11:36

Unfortunately any thread discussing women-led, women-centred intimate care for women brings a plethora of posters offended on behalf of the men

Oh give over, I have repeatedly said that women should always be able to choose a woman if they want and that is absolutely their right.
It is NOT OK to expect everyone else be segregrated though.
Which you'd get if the only hospital near you was a fully female one.
That's taking away choice and choice should always be there.
So a wing for those wanting to be separate would be a better way then everybody gets choice.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 11:39

So, what would you say to the woman in the OP who was bullied for refusing to be examined by a male?

Because regardless of your personal feelings about it, it happened to this woman.

Aaarrgghhh · 16/07/2019 13:23

ZebrasAreBras

Don’t be silly. Of course you do not force a woman to be examined but if she refuses the only person able because they are male and there is no female available to help, then what? Just sit and watch things go to pot?

LassOfFyvie · 16/07/2019 13:23

I don't think this woman's account is credible or reliable.

The doctor "demanded" according to her. Whether he demanded or asked- she exercised her right to refuse.

Whether she was bullied because of that or whether the medical staff were struggling to cope with a patient refusing to take any advice- (even down to cutting the cord , which at least one person on here put her baby at danger) can't be established from that article.

GrammarTeacher · 16/07/2019 13:25

The woman in the OP had refused all previous care and appeared in an emergency. We actually have guidelines in this country for what to do if people refuse life saving care. If she had engaged with the service previously it is more likely a woman would have been available.
I am not comfortable personally with people refusing treatment that could save their child's life. Fortunately, I don't have to make these decisions and in the U.K. there are laws to guide us on this.
I operate on the basis that medical practitioners want the best outcome for all. Because they do. This will sometimes involve things that we would not prefer. But do you know what? In an emergency (as this was) you don't always get choices.

RosesAndRaindrops · 16/07/2019 13:36

We actually have guidelines in this country for what to do if people refuse life saving care. If she had engaged with the service previously it is more likely a woman would have been available

Yes, that's what birth plans are for, surely? If you are that adamant you don't want a male doctor (which is your right) then you tell the hospital that in advance so they know not to.
If you just turn up never having been to the hospital before, how were they supposed to know and have a plan in place?
It sounds like she was refusing other things as well.
They'll have just wanted the baby to be safe.

TheBossOfMe · 16/07/2019 13:56

"I just can't imagine a woman actively preferring a man examining her cervix."

I can - I would imagine there are many women who have been treated appallingly during birth by female midwives (who, if you read some of the childbirth threads on MN, seem as prone to assaulting women in labour by forcing internal examinations on women without explicit consent) who might be triggered by a woman examining them.

Equally I absolutely see a scenario where a women who has been assaulted by a man would not want to be examined by a man.

It's a shame this thread isn't a more positive discussion about how we go about ensuring women voices in labour are heard and listened to, and choices made available to them.

TheBossOfMe · 16/07/2019 13:58

That was replying to @ZebrasAreBras

berghg1710 · 16/07/2019 14:01

If you know you haven't been taking illegal drugs, or have checked that any legal one are considered safe in pregnancy, then why refuse a blood test?

Goosefoot · 16/07/2019 14:10

So, what would you say to the woman in the OP who was bullied for refusing to be examined by a male?

Just to be clear here, you are suggesting the right thing would be for the doctor not to touch or help her, even though there was no other doctor present. And if that lead to her death, or that of her child, you would accept that result because it was her choice to refuse treatment.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2019 14:30

It's not the first thread this has happened to, Sakura. Unfortunately any thread discussing women-led, women-centred intimate care for women brings a plethora of posters offended on behalf of the men.

Actually I think its a case ofwoman centred pragmatism v hardline ideology in this case.

ZebrasAreBras · 16/07/2019 14:37

Just to be clear here, you are suggesting the right thing would be for the doctor not to touch or help her, even though there was no other doctor present. And if that lead to her death, or that of her child, you would accept that result because it was her choice to refuse treatment.

It doesn't matter what I think, it is her right to refuse any medical treatment. Here, and in the USA.

Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse
sakura184 · 16/07/2019 14:39

There was a woman recently who was taken to court by medical professionals because she refused kidney dialysis on the grounds she didn't want to lose her sparkle. She basically wanted to die a dignified death it sounded like to me. Anyway the court rules in her favour.

OP posts:
sakura184 · 16/07/2019 14:48

another aside. My midwife went into birth fear as a speciality because of sexist attitudes because he was male. He felt that as a result he had to listen to what the women he was treating were saying particularly hard rather than just going along with the system as it was, in order to simply build relationships and be trusted

Could be benign. Could be a sociopath learning how to ingratiate himself with women.
There is a thread on here about evidence proving that sociopaths who are given therapy in prison not only aren't cured, but in actual fact the therapy helps them target victims, because after going through therapy they understand "therapy speak" and other ways of acceptable behaviour, which helps them blend in with the crowd and look more trustworthy.

Besides that, having to learn to trust a male midwife sounds like a lot of unnecessary emotional labour on the woman's part. It does sound like he's making it all about him.

If a woman wants a male midwife she'd automatically trust him wouldn't she? If she naturally doesn't trust men, why doesn't she simply request a woman? Why is the male midwife in question jumping through hoops to get women who don't naturally trust him, to trust him??

OP posts:
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.