Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

I’m starting to feel like it’s a ‘stick fingers in ear and go blah blah blah’ to anyone else’s opinions or wishes so I’m bowing out - women should have the choice to have male or female midwives, male or female gynaecologists, male or female nurses in a home birth setting, ML centre or hospital delivery suite for whatever intervention they request or need. With no judgement from other women who believe their opinions trump all others. Simple as that.

Ina May Gaskin is "full of shit" despite her amazing track record and even inventing new manouveres for difficult births to help women avoid c section, and some male midwife is a woman's rights advocate and should be listened to. You can't make this up. It's painful to me

Its interesting you think she invented that manoeuvre. Others think she nicked it off some indigenous women and passed it off as her own.

Also, avoiding CS isnt some inherently positive goal in itself, lots of women dont think it is, and your understanding of this subject is always going to be incomplete if you frame the avoidance of CS in that way. There are times when looking to avoid is appropriate, times when it causes more pain and suffering and is anti-woman in itself.

Ohhh so Ina "full of shit" Gaskin has invented a manouvere that helps women avoid c section that even her detractors know about.

I think it's absolutely fascinating if she worked alongside indigenous women. Im sure she would've referenced them, women tend to. They're not men.

I mean women are known for referencing their help/sources/inspirations.
Men - > not so much

Ah, so women you admire cant possibly have appropriated anything from other women and taken the credit? Gotcha. Its about as rigorous an argument as some of the other things you've come out with on this thread though.

Honestly, this is a vital issue for women and feminists. We do need to discuss bodily autonomy in childbirth, entitlement to accurate information and preferred place of birth, and the possibility that obstetrics and midwifery aren't immune from the known phenomenon of wannabe abusers choosing roles that give them access to victims. You're right to start discussions on the matter. You are not, however, going to get very far simply parroting some of the dafter NCB ideologue claims and getting upset when sacred cows are criticised.

It's so random that we're discussing whether or not Ina May Gaskin's brilliant and groundbreaking contribution to midwifery was lifted from indigenous women who must have respected her enough to ask her to work alongside them. It would be very easy to check out your claims she stole the manouvere from them. You just have to see whether she referenced them and/or see if they use the manouvere themselves and/or see if they lay claim to it.

And blow me, if all of this doesn't show how high the bar is for female leaders in their field. Her work and her track record is amazing and she is, at best, ignored, defamed and ridiculed. And some male imposter midwife somewhere is taken seriously because ... why?

But yes let's definitely not discuss why this manouvere isn't common knowledge in hospitals

Male ob/gyns and certainly male midwives are full of shit What the fuck? They learn the same as women in the profession. I think you just hate men and clearly have birth on a really high pedestal and think it should be sacred to only women, except when you wanted your partner there.. okay then.

Yeah, this conversation is very frustrating. Discussing childbirth and women's gynecologic and obstetrical care is essential to feminism, but the bias of this OP (and refusal to acknowledge what we're saying) keeps this from being a productive conversation. The Kool-aid is quite potent here.

Also, I agree Ina May is full of shit.

And she is racist.

rewire.news/article/2017/04/26/ina-may-gaskin-racial-gaffe-heard-round-midwifery-world/

Women of color in the US have an alarming rate of maternal mortality, and to suggest it's their fault is horrible and not true. We can talk about that on another thread.

Peace.

@Aaarrgghhh

That comment was in response to the person saying Ina May Gaskin is full of shit.

So you basically allow the woman hating comment to stand? And defend men to the hilt? On FWR?

Birth trauma is real and can be the result of many factors in different experiences of birth. You seem to only accept the trauma if it as a result of your prefixed agenda - men should be kept out of birth (apart from your partner....and I guess, son...if you had a boy)

The things I found traumatic in 3 (very different) births included
Being ignored and infantilised ("do you think clary sage would help, love?"...."After 3 fucking days squatting on a bean bag. NO Fuck Off)
Tearing to my arsehole and back again
Appalling aftercare (the comment about shitting myself, a self styled breastfeeding 'guru' coming in, grabbing my tit and talking to me like I was a naughty 5 year old and no one answering a call for help when my stitches opened up)
Finding out my baby was in distress
Passing out during birth
Stitches done by midwife rather than surgeon
An elective caesarean (entirely my choice) every second of which was traumatic up to and including d's being taken away to NICU unable to breathe.

Some of the cause of these things are the result if systemic failures, the culture around childbirth and men and women were involved in the positives and negatives. Some if it was just shit luck.

We should be able to talk about all aspects of the trauma and the wonder and empowerment of birth - even if it doesn't fit your agenda.

RE Ina May Gaskin
She mentions a lot lot more and I for one was absthatolutely in awe of her - yes I think we get that. But the way you put down other people who have been a positive force in women's healthcare, because they are men, and put down any one else's opinion because it is 'mainstream 'mansplaining' and 'boring' is rude and childish.

I have huge respect for the professor (male) who was involved in my recovery for a rare gestational trophoblastic cancer, and has been leading the trials into a drug which will save the lives of 1000s if women. I also have respect for the fertility doctor (male) we saw afterwards who helped us to go on to have 3 children despite the cancer and chemotherapy and the huge fears I had about becoming pregnant again. Please don't just dismiss that.

You would have to be stupidly naïve to think it would be incredibly easy to tell if Ina May had appropriated 'her' manoeuvre because she'd definitely credit them and if not, there'd definitely be a record of it. What planet are you on where privileged white people taking credit for other people's work invariably leaves a paper trail sakura? It isn't this one.

And this matters, first of all because of structural racism and how it affects the health of black women in particular (that's one of the theories as to why African American women have such poor outcomes) and also because Ina May has said some racially problematic shit. You cannot perform any kind of feminist analysis of birthing issues without acknowledging these issues. Sacred cows though...

@GeorgeFayne

There is a wonderful photo of her with a black midwife whose work she admires and praises. She writes at length about how difficult it was for the midwife in question to practice her craft given the limitations put on her. She draws attention to the difficulties black women face in one of her books, specifically about how black women had no access to health insurance.
Considering all of this, She never struck me as a racist.

That being said, her response in that article didn't fully address racism that black women encounter, I agree

In response, Gaskin discussed the importance of hard work (specifically, the physical labor of farming and growing one’s own food), the impact of drug use, prayer as stress reduction, and the responsibility to know one’s risk factors during pregnancy.

And defend men to the hilt? On FWR?

Just because its FWR doesn't mean you can't defend a man to the hilt if they are genuinely working with the best interests of women at heart.

My mind rather boggles at the idea that you MUST be critical of men cos it's FWR.

Be critical of people, whether male or female, with just reason and good logic. Otherwise it is just hate.

The fact is you have criticised a man who helped me, and you have absolutely no idea who he is or what his creditals are, because I said he's led the field in birth fear in this country. Purely because he's a man and no other reason. That ignorant in the extreme.

Ironically one of the reasons I sought him out was because he was an advocate for homebirth (and this was one of his passions) but also understood why some women actively wanted an ELCS and that this wasn't 'merely maternal request'.

He stuck his neck out against the politics going on at the hospital the time, possibly at cost to his career. (I don't know the story but he left and it was something to do with my case).

So yes if you think men shouldn't be gynaecologists or midwives that is an outright sexist comment. Not all women will want to be treated by them and that's fine. They perhaps have to work harder to understand and demonstrate they understand the sensitivities of being male in that role, but should that exclude them from helping women who are fine being treated by them? This is a profession that is struggling to recruit, train and retain staff. Staff shortages are a huge problem.

As it goes, whilst there are lots of male gynaecologists the number of male midwives in the country does remain incredibly small.

Would I have allowed this male midwife to help me in labour should things have gone that way? Yes absolutely because I trusted him, felt he had treated me with respect, had listen to me and that was far more important to me. He absolutely centred my needs.

There were other female midwives who did not. Including the one who belittled me and distressed me so much post natally I made a complaint which was taken seriously.

There is a wonderful photo of her with a black midwife whose work she admires and praises.

Did you really just give the 'she had a black mate' defence

Considering all of this, She never struck me as a racist.

Well obviously that's OK. She can't possibly be cos you said so.

rolls eyes

What about the people who have found some of her comments racist?

Jesus wept.

Blinkered cult like hero worshipping....

rewire.news/article/2017/04/26/ina-may-gaskin-racial-gaffe-heard-round-midwifery-world/

www.yesmagazine.org/peace-justice/black-mothers-arent-to-blame-for-high-infant-mortality-20170504

www.sorrywatch.com/no-way-ina-mae/

That's three different opinions on what Ina May did that upset people and made them think she was racist.

I understand the issues around the cascade of intervention. Fear of that, and trauma from DS1s birth, was what led me to choose a home birth for DS2. Despite having started Ds2s pregnancy under consultant led care (and years on, I will never forget Red's help around that and her assistance how to argue for an elective caesarean, should that be what I chose re the issues I was facing).

As it happened, DS2 was not in on this plan himself, and decided not to come on time. I went 16 days over as I was so scared of the cascade of intervention and the hospital. In the end I couldn't chance waiting any longer and there being any problems, so I went in and was induced. The midwife who delivered him could not have been any better - she stayed sat at a table outside the room (reading take a break ) and let me get on with it, which is exactly what I needed (I am autistic and cope best in most situations on my own). No cascade came. She literally just came in the room for the pushing stage. FWIW though, my placenta did not look "old" at all, so I had been induced based on what seemed to actually be incorrect dates. Had I ended up c-sectioned, I'd probably be more annoyed about that.

It contains sentences like “Rhythmically contract and relax the muscles around your coochie and your peephole about 50 times a day” and “Talk nice; it will keep your bottom loose so it can open up easier.”)

I had not heard of Ina May Gaskin but I'm supposed to take this seriously?

I accept that Ina May Gaskin is a racist, and even though I think she did a lot for women and for the field of midwifery, and even though it surprises me she is racist considering her friendships with black women, specifically one black midwife whom she openly admired, I won't use her as a reference in future.

@BeyondDangerousTshirts
I'm glad the birth wasn't as bad as you'd feared.

Ok I'm glad to hear that OP.

I think a major issue with NCB types in a US context, Ina May by no means being the only one, is the way they just ignore the specific challenges facing black women when they're inconvenient to the argument. Clearly we are all concerned at appalling maternal mortality in the US, and at the particularly poor prospects for black women. The commonest cause of maternal mortality in the US is embolisms, and the third commonest is pre-eclampsia, both of which disproportionately affect black women. These are issues requiring more and better medical management, not less.

That is not to say there can't ever be any problems stemming from medicalisation, but in a US context, the problems of ill and disproportionately black women needing properly medicalised care should be front and centre. Because they're the ones dying in greatest number.

I mean really midwifery is a bit of a tangent and something I'm personally fascinated by. But to address the point of this thread which is birth trauma, you just have to listen to the women themselves..
Women talk of:
strangers in their room, strangers taking the baby, the doctor being male (against their wishes),, being pushed into epidural after firmly expressing they didn't want one,
It's #medicalrapeculture and #forcedprocedures on Facebook for those who'd like to take a closer look at what is happening to women

Sakura do you know that there are also women traumatised by denial of epidural? Do you think that's important? I do, because it happened to me. My view is that ideological decisions of all stripes harm pregnant and birthing women.

Oh FFS. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't talk about and reference Ina May.

Just be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of what she says.

She clearly has had a positive effect for a lot of women.

The problem is when it becomes evangelical and not aware of its own bias and flaws. Especially if it has unintended consequences which are negative. (and the evangelism element is harmful because it sets up poor narratives and can produce unrealistic expectations)

One of the things that was stressed to me was 'how are you going to cope if it doesn't go to plan' and how you need to consider this. And to mentally prepare for that.

The problem, and possibly part of the reason for its success, is that Ina May philosophy seems to rely heavily on the psychological trick of single mindedness which is also used today in sports psychology.

When it works fine, but the downside to that is how it leaves women if 'it doesn't work for them'. It places the sense of failure on them personally or demonises the very people who are there to help when there are problems.

At its heart is this idea of 'the cascade of interventions' as a theory. It is flawed as it suggests that it's a failure of care givers making decisions - in many cases this might well be true due to poor practice, lack of skills and defensive medicine. However its also the pathway if there is a very genuine problem which care givers need to adopt to save the life of you and your baby. So if you believe in the cascade of interventions unquestioningly it can be harmful in terms of trust with health care professionals.