Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

@hazeyjane

Wars. Sex changes for trans people. Anything really is more important than centering women in anything important like birth

@Justhadathought

Completely agree. And some women just aren't going to get a magnificent experience out of birth because it's true that some women do have medical issues that require c sections. Don't get me wrong, I've said before that any woman who gives birth is amazing, not matter how she does it.
But birth can be an ecstatic experience and in cases where medical intervention is necessary there is no reason why a woman shouldn't have the best possible experience under the circumstances.
But when I hear about the frankly pervy and boundary crossing behaviour of doctors, the unjustifiable and unnecessary ( according to many midwives such as Ina May Gaskin) painful procedures women endure, the misogyny from both men and women in the profession because the profession itself is steeped in misogyny, I question why women are being treated like this when there is no need for it and it should be stopped

@allfurcoatnoknickers

I had amazing births too. I'm not going around saying all women do. Why would I?

You don't seem to be listening to the experiences of actual posters on here, preferring to place all your conviction in what you've read.
I would be dead, and my son with me, had I tried a home birth. The mostly male surgical team who eventually delivered him were wonderful, and considerate, even trying to make it (the emergency section) seem like a victory, not the failure I thought it was.

But I'm just 'boring', and 'tedious' and 'send you to sleep' so I suppose what I say is irrelevant anyway.

StrangeLookingParasite

I've never once said that hospital births aren't sometimes necessary. Experienced midwives know which women are low risk births and which aren't. Some midwives even specialize in high risk births like twins or breech for homebirthing. That's how confident they are.

Midwives can also tell when a homebirth is going wrong and may need hospital intervention. They say that a good experienced midwife can spot the red flags long before the situation becomes critical

What midwives are saying , or trying to say, if anyone will listen ( maybe if they were male midwives people would take notice but they're not) is that the cascade of intervention in hospitals leads to unnecessary medicalization in births that would have been fine at home.

So in cases which are not high risk homebirthing is much better and safer and psychologically better for the mother too

I just bloody ❤️ midwives basically. There are even flying midwives who will fly to you if you live In a country that won't let you do homebirth for example some countries don't allow VBAC homebirths. My friend hired one of these twice in Japan for her 3rd and 4th babies because Japan doesn't allow VBAC homebirthing

And I'm 😓 that so many midwives were killed in the witchcraze and that a lot of knowledge died with their bodies

I’d advocate appropriate staffing levels so women can have the proper support of a midwife during labour at home, in hospital or in a midwife led unit. I’d also advocate listening to each mother about how she wants to give birth. You shouldn’t have to fight for an elective caesarean. Give women all the information, allow them to make a choice and support them effectively in that choice.

@Breathlessness

Yes all of that. Also the option of a female only midwife led unit.
We can afford wars and "research for womb implants for transwomen" and a number of other things I don't think any money should be spent on but we can't afford basic care for women
Then a system where the mother can report back on her experience and be taken seriously so that dismissals are made. Route out the misogynists, male or female
Eliminate the pervy porn watching doctors who think it's okay in any universe to do examinations on women who aren't comfortable with a man, or who think it's ok to chat to women in labour I saw this on TV and midwife Gaskin says it slows down and even stalls labour and a doctor of all people should know this and not make the event all about him

You know midwives are the bomb because if any woman or baby died during one of their homebirths they'd have the book thrown at them as well as jail time.
Midwives know this and they still practice

They're badass

I don't know what the hell is going on in hospitals in the USA, for example, for it to have such a high maternal death rate

We have those things here, fully funded by the gov midwife units - including homebirths. I had my first babies in the midwife units in hospital and my last baby through the same program at home. They crunched the numbers and not-surprisingly found that supporting low risk home birth is cheap enough to be viable.

@ALittleBitofVitriol

That sounds good I think this is helpful to reduce birth trauma for women

Extremism can make you very shortsighted. I know. I've been there. I've spent many years in conventional medical practice, where studies and statistics rule and people are often forgotten. I've also been steeped in the woo.

After seeing cracks in the medical model of childbirth firsthand, I wanted something different for my own babies. I read Ina May and Dr. Sears and La Leche League. Pam England, author of Birthing From Within, was my childbirth instructor. My views became solidified after delivering my first vaginally, unmedicated, with a nurse midwife in the hospital. It was a powerful, life-changing, woman-affirming, goddess moment. But it was incredibly painful, (and I didn't realize the fear it instilled until number two).

Yes, I became judgey. Never verbally with others and not with patients, but in my mind. There was a "right" and "wrong" way to birth. That extended to parenting--breastfeeding, baby wearing, cosleeping, 100% mama all the time. I wanted others to have the same experience of birth and mothering, and somewhere along the way, I forgot that we are all different.

But life has a way of changing us. A few friends with frightening experiences, some harrowing situations of mothers of my patients, two more babies of my own, more clinical experience... I found myself mellowed, humbled, and realizing that the older I get, the less I probably know.

Every woman is different. She will have her own goals for mothering and parenting. She will have her own history and needs. And she must be respected. Not ashamed, whether she chooses a homebirth or a repeat c-section. Whether she nurses her baby or gives formula. She needs providers who will listen, make an individual assessment of HER needs, be knowledgeable and skilled, and show compassion--regardless of their sex. This is the least we should expect.

Yes, there is a role for evidence, best practices, and discussing harm reduction. There is also the incredible complexity of comparing populations, healthcare systems, and even providers. (For example, in the US, there are different types of midwives. Most homebirth midwives have nowhere near the education and training of midwives in the UK and Europe.). The US is a highly litigious place, where physicians constantly live in fear of lawsuits. (Many practice decisions are made because of this reason alone.) And yet there are still many wonderful physicians and midwives, even as attested to in this thread.

If feminism centers women, it should include ALL women. Those who want only female care providers, those who want the right pedigree in a physician or midwife, or those who just want a caring and skilled birth attendant. Each preference is valid; reproductive choice really is a much bigger issue than we've framed it to be. I hope it's something feminists will continue to discuss with an open mind, sharing and listening to the experiences of many women.

That's what I call a good chat.

I think anyone who has read Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar has an idea of what birth must be like in America. Pubes shaved, enema, and stirrups, is what she saw. Horrifying. Hope it's changed

Oh ffs, that was 1963.

When I worked as an auxiliary in a nursing home we had a lady who was a survivor of CSA.
On her notes it was clear that she was not to receive personal care from a Male.
I came on duty one night to hear her screaming in fear - a bank RGN had ignored her notes and was attempting to replace her prolapse.
The owners of the home took swift action to remove him but the lady never trusted is again and had to move homes.
It was heartbreaking. His sheer arrogance.

You don't seem to be listening to the experiences of actual posters on here, preferring to place all your conviction in what you've read

Nobody is denying many women have suffered traumatic birthing conditions and experiences...but equally there are many women for whom birthing was a profoundly empowering experience. Admittedly most of these experiences will have been in the home - during a home birth.

I don't think women, necessarily, make for good birth attendants - because individual women bring their own view and experience into the process. Many midwives do not feel confident outside of the medical model of childbirth - and always view it as a potential emergency; and instead of recognising normal or natural process, anticipate problems - and this is why escalations of interventions happen; and why the birthing woman comes to feel disempowered by the experience.

Also many female GPS and doctors adhere to the medical model and mentality too...so just being a woman is no guarantee of emotional support of competent midwifery skill.

It is never really 'acceptable' for women to talk positively about empowering, natural births - because there is a lot of censure around this topic - and the dominant narrative has come to be " The most important thing is the delivery of a healthy baby".

Of course, nowadays we are seeing women pregnant and birthing in situations and conditions never before likely or even possible -and at ever older ages - and some of these conditions prevent very real health & medical risks. So, yes, some births will be quite, or totally, medicalised.

This is always a highly emotive subject - with 'shoulds' and 'oughts' flying all over the place; and in itself reveals the powerful and intense experiences that birthing and motherhood brings.

@GertrudeCB

Thank you for sharing that story. These things need to be shared and spoken about. I'm glad the nursing home reacted appropriately.

A friend of mine desperately wanted to avoid a c section. She had a healthy pregnancy. She told the hospital she wanted to avoid a c section. She had a hospital birth and ended up with a c section.

Now what midwives are trying to communicate to people is this: if you specifically want to avoid a c section, and your pregnancy is normal and healthy, you should really go for a homebirth.

Ina May Gaskin goes into great detail about what she calls the cascade of intervention in hospitals which result in c sections which most likely could have been avoided.

There are so many factors involved in the cascade of intervention. I mentioned talking to a woman ( which I've seen a doctor do) not letting her get on with the job in hand. The hustle and bustle and barging in. My friend had a huge group of students walk in on her in labour, without her permission asked. Gaskin talks about the myriad of ways a labour can be stopped or stalled. Once this happens a doctor might induce to "get things going again". She writes in great detail about how the induction leads to the cascade of intervention because mothers often ask for an epidural because the pains of an induction are closer together than with a natural labour so less respite. Epidurals, she says, often lead to c sections for obvious reasons such as the woman not being able to move around to get into the best position. ( she believes standing is often best because of gravity), or the epidural drug itself slowing down the labour leading to a distressed baby, leading to a c section.

She mentions a lot lot more and I for one was absolutely in awe of her common sense wisdom

Also as I keep saying
, just like you don't know which men aren't rapists ( and we know not all of them are but because we can't tell we exclude all men from women's spaces, how do you know which men have gone into this job just because they get off on the idea of controlling women.
"I'm afraid a c section couldn't be avoided" to a woman who voiced that she was desperate to avoid one.

@Justhadathought
I hadn't considered that powerful female centered births were a taboo topic but I think you might be spot on there.

It's all about "we managed to get a healthy baby out of this bint aren't we amazing us doctors, she should be grateful"

Is this just a thread spouting about the virtues of Gaskil and demonising hospital births as bad or is it a thread about woman centred care which includes hospital births which for many are a) what they would prepare to reduce their anxiety b) medically needed.

Cos I'm really struggling to see it as a anything but a soapbox about how wonderful home birth is and how uneducated women are who don't have them, don't want them or can't have them.

It has its place I do despair whenever one method of birth is put on a pedestal, whatever it is.

It only serves to feed the narratives of 'failure' or 'selfishness' or 'laziness' that surrounds childbirth and the idea of 'not doing it the right way'.

Within this there are always cases where a birth plan isn't going to go to plan, and part of the empowerment narrative needs to be a conversation about how you empower and support women when it doesn't go to plan because this has been shown to be the group where birth trauma is most prevalent. That is tied up with expectation (sometimes unrealistic) and failure of HCP to communicate adequately.

If you plan a homebirth and end up with a homebirth, well that's great. But that's not how it happens for everyone. It doesn't help when it going wrong for this 'oh but a homebirth is the most empowering thing' when they feel they have missed out on that experience in someway.

I have two good friends who really wanted a home birth.

One had one but unfortunately she still had to go to hospital afterwards due to a severe tear. She had another for her second child, but once again ended up in hospital herself after the event for blood loss and tearing. She found being in hospital difficult not because of the birth but because of the postnatal experience which was dreadful. (and yes poor postnatal treatment can affect how women feel about the entire birth, so that's hugely relevant)

The other attempted a homebirth, but ended up blue lighted to hospital for an emergency CS. For her second she wanted either a homebirth or an ELCS - so both ends of the spectrum - because the bit she wanted to avoid was the trauma of the lost of control and that was more important than the method of birth itself. As luck would have it, the baby was breech so the decision was largely taken out of her hands and she opted for the ELCS.

My point is, I have issues with anyone who evangelised about any form of birth. It's very much part of the problem.

I hadn't considered that powerful female centered births were a taboo topic but I think you might be spot on there.

Ffs have you ever read the childbirth section? It most definitely isnt taboo but there is generally a tolerant and sympathetic tone about others who have and want different experiences.

Im getting massively pissed off now.

Ina May is full of shit.

Male ob/gyns and certainly male midwives are full of shit

On my Facebook just now it popped up a woman's saying her freebirth was interrupted and every fear she had about medical birth came true and if there's ever a next time she'll make sure it's at home.

There is a clear connection between hospital births and birth trauma. Also, hospital births are the default. So anything written about on this thread by me is anti mainstream thought.

And yet people still manage to act like I'm the gestapo who rules over all birthing women.

All I'm offering is an alternative opinion.

You want a mainstream convo about how wonderful hospitals are, knock yourself out and I'm sure the men will love you

What, every single one of them? I've never met any so couldn't say. That sounds sufficiently generalised as to be an essentially useless argument, but even if they all are, it's not either/or. You aren't refuting any points about Ina May being a bullshitter, which she absolutely is, by whatabouting.