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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

321 replies

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 14:55

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin Wink

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 22:46

the telly is crap on a Sunday

series 3 of stranger things. sorted

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:46

Um I asked it directly to her about her own beliefs, not yours. Why would you jump into that

You asked
You don't really believe that there's an actual operation that can turn a man into a woman do you
Seeing as I'd already answered this question upthread about biology I thought you might have missed it so was just posting it again as I thought you might be interested in the answer, that people are perfectly aware that transwomen aren't biologically women.
Of course I don't speak for the other poster, she may think differently for all I know Smile

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 22:47

and I'm loving the naked boys on cars who told a complete stranger that they were straight

seems legit

Supersimpkin · 07/07/2019 22:48

Not rising, sorry chaps. Grin

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:48

Sounds as legit as some of the stuff in the OP

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:49

Yeah Bernard but if you were a nakid straight guy jumping on a car would you scamper off to watch Sunday telly

😉😉

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:49

So why are you calling them women then, when biology is the only thing that makes a woman?

I asked the other poster, not you. i still hope she answers. She was the one who brought up surgery. Although the way you're answering for her I'm beginning to think sockpuppetry and I never think that.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:49

Not rising, sorry chaps

Good Grin

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:49

Super telly calling you 😂😂

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:52

You're not "rising" because you can't answer, because there is no answer to how a man becomes a woman. It's impossible to turn a man into a woman, his Y chromosome and his penis and testicles will always get in the way of that particular transformation.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:52

Absolutely not sockpuppeting the other poster, I was just answering the question as I thought you were interested in an answer, so answered it.

So why are you calling them women then, when biology is the only thing that makes a woman?
I'm calling transwomen women, yes, you're the one who's tagged on biology is the only thing that makes them a woman to what I said though.
I can accept transwomen as women, I do know that they're not biologically so but I can still accept them as transwomen.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:53

The trans takeover of Pride is awful. The fact that lesbians have been shoved out to make way for men is appalling.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:55

But given there is literally nothing else that makes a woman apart from biology, then how can you use the term women about them?

I was interested in her answer obviously which is why I asked her. I'm sure you're not sockpuppeting but that's how it comes across when you answer questions that are directed at someone else.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 07/07/2019 22:57

Great thing about all this derailing (which is obvious for what it is) is it keeps OPs account of their experience at Pride at the top of the thread list which encourages more people to read it.

Mermoose · 07/07/2019 22:58

RosesandRaindrops a woman is a female human. All the laws that addressed inequality and sought to provide protection for women were for women understood as female humans.
If you think that transwomen are women, you must think that 'woman' doesn't mean female human. So what do you think it means? And why should the people in this new category be entitled to the rights and protections that were created for the people formerly known as women?

FloralBunting · 07/07/2019 23:00

I suspect that Roses will be of the school of thought that considers 'woman' a "bigger" thing than biology. Sadly, whenever someone of that school has elaborated on their particular definition, it turns out to be either an old fashioned closet full of sexism, or another word for 'person'.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 23:01

As they say, men know exactly which people women and girls are when it comes to their violence and gynocide against us. It just becomes impossible to define when women want to name our selves.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 23:03

I have to say I'm enjoying that "not rising" remark. Can't even defend their positions even when they spend all their time nitpicking and derailing ours.

Mermoose · 07/07/2019 23:08

From talking to other people who believe TWAW, it seems to be that they think the word 'woman' is meant to encompass people's personalities or, for want of a better word, their souls. It's not. It can't. Personalities are too varied, there's no way of categorising them and it's reductive to try. The word woman is necessary to describe the sex class someone belongs to, because that sex class has repercussions for our health and other vulnerabilities. We need it. To tie it to other things - feelings, personalities, likes and dislikes - this is what is sexist, this is what is limiting.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 23:20

There is a very good programme on Edna O'Brien on the telly just now. They must all have gone to watch that rather than answer what magic fairy dust you can sprinkle on a man which makes it realistic to call him a woman.

PurpleCrowbar · 07/07/2019 23:26

I'm quite liking 'not rising' as a great new euphemism for 'no, when I read back what I'd posted I realised myself it hung together rather less well than Sunday night telly, ooops' though.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 23:31

OOh, this just appeared on twitter, posted by vulvamort:

"If you can't explain what you mean by gender
Don't prattle about gender identity

If you can't explain what you mean by woman Don't tell me you identify as one

If you claim sex doesn't exist Don't tell me your gender identity doesn't match yours

Just Think.
Why can't I explain?"

One for all the telly fans.

Absolutepowercorrupts · 07/07/2019 23:41

decomposing
op is an unreliable witness
Are you very confused decomposing do you think that this forum is a court?
The op made it extremely clear that this post was about their personal opinions. Nothing else.
Sorry, not rising chaps is a such convenient get out when a poster can't back up their opinions with factual evidence.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 23:48

They think it's a badge of honour not to get into a discussion about their fantasy idea of turning men into women.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 23:54

I read the "not rising" remark as in relation to those saying @Supersimpkin had made her story up about "the straights"
not about refusing to answer anything else - I can't see where she refused to answer anything? Happy to be corrected if wrong Smile