Is female impersonation/drag offensive?

[dannybb]

Hi. As a teenage hairdressing apprentice I used to do a drag act in my spare time - a few decades ago. With more time on my hands I'm now thinking of returning to female impersonation - doing drag queen bingo and entertainment mainly in old peoples homes etc.

While I am (and always will be) very respectful of women I'm wondering if the era of men dressing as women to provide entertainment has had its day.

Has this now become offensive or inappropriate?

Any responses much appreciated!

@Earlywalker
Considering that radical feminism comes from Marxist thought, which was all about the oppression of the working classes, I find it strange that you would consider a neoliberalist feminism more working class friendly.

I have often wondered if liberal feminists expand this idea of choice to other sections of society. So prostitution, porn etc is all fine as women are making a free choice. Those from deprived backgrounds are less likely to go to university, those who don't have working parents are more likely to be out of work but it's free choice so who are we to say there is a problem.

It was Marxist theory that enabled women to understand our oppression as a class oppression

@birdsdestiny

Yes well that's why the idea that "choice " feminism is pro working class is utterly ridiculous. The pro choice feminist aren't selling their vaginas are they.
Women are subordinate sex class and the brunt of the oppression falls onto working class women

Re choosy choice feminism: I expect the fact that BAME people are underrepresented in parliament is down to personal choice and all hunky dory too.

Yes when those with enormous wealth and power are selling their bodies, their wombs, then I may be persuaded that there isn't a problem.

Very few men make the choice of wearing make up unless they're also making a big song and dance about parodying womanhood or telling us they are indeed women because they've put on some mascara. Mascara is always about women isn't it.

I can think of a few men who wore it without making it about women, pop singers mainly. Men just don't "choose" to wear it very often and that tells us a lot about how much of it is really choice

Sheila Jeffreys argues that the expectation that women should wear make up, have long hair and wear certain usually bright clothes is to mark us out as subordinate.
That men enjoy parodying our subordinate status in the form of trans or drag is upsetting

I've notice a big shift in what mainstream gay men say about women, too - as if they always felt that way, but it's only since they've achieved full acceptance and equality that they feel empowered to say so in public. I used to really enjoy the original Will & Grace, but happened on a 'new improved' version recently, and Will's friend went "Yuck" when the word 'vagina' was mentioned. Will said "come on, you came out of a vagina" and his friend said "No, I'm a gold star gay, I was born by CS". I've seen jokes by drag queens about lesbians being confused in a fish market. Are women supposed to laugh at all that?

It's pretty horrific when women are so downtrodden that they think it's OK to laugh at jokes about how disgusting they are, and all women should do it

There aren't a narrow set of ideas that count as feminist but "choice" feminism is liberal feminism. We're going to have to say what we are. Radical feminists have theory that disputes the element of choice when it comes to femininity. Libfems think there are no social powers behind it. It's fine to be a libfem but it's anti feminist to say that any point of view can be feminism. This is how we ended up with "anyone can be a woman" and pumps coming on here mansplaining why porn was empowering

I'm not sure why you think radical feminism is all one thing either.

This has very little to do with choice feminism or liberal feminism. Is it intrinsically degrading to a person or group to have other people take on a fictional role in a theatrical context is nothing to do with choice feminism. It goes beyond feminism to larger questions as we can see by people comparing it to blackface which itself is a complex discussion that is often reduced to crappy identity politics - the opposite perspective from anything "radical".

It's simply wrong to think people committed to radical feminism will all have the same perspective.

Pretty much zero discussion on the nature of theatre more generally which is extremely relevant when we are talking about settings that are theatrical rather than some sort of claim to an identity. How far do we go with this idea that people can only represent their own group on the stage and how do we decide when it is ok?

In theory I do not have a problem with somebody playing a character of the opposite sex. I went to a single sex school and we played all the parts. The problem is that female parts and male parts aren't equal - there are very few female parts, and those that exist are far more likely to be 2 dimensional stereotypes - so in a heist movie there will be various characters - the geek, the action hero, the crook, the older character etc. etc. and then 'the woman'.

Women do sometimes play men e.g Peter Pan, Kathy Burke as Perry. I've also seen all male productions of Shakespeare. However, playing a part that happens to be male or female is not the same as presenting a stereotypical version of being female.

Drag Kings would have a long history and exist outside the pages of the Guardian magazine if the situation were really the same for men and women. There is no Drag King equivalent to Ru Paul. Channel 4 didn't broadcast a programme about Drag Kings this week.

The clue is in the name. Drag Queens dress up as women because women are 'other' and the concept of a man demeaning himself by wearing women's clothes - being a 'Queen' - is supposed to be funny. A woman wearing 'men's clothes' is just off to do the shopping.The concept doesn't become less sexist because it's done in Hoxton rather than at the end of the pier.

There is a simple answer - just get rid of masculine and feminine straight jackets and allow people to be themselves without hiding behind a persona. Unfortunately it seems that that is too scary.

It's pretty horrific when women are so downtrodden that they think it's OK to laugh at jokes about how disgusting they are, and all women should do it

But do you think that people who are ok with impersonators are also saying they think these kinds of jokes are ok or funny? Some of them might, and maybe they are the same people who like poo jokes I don't know. But it doesn't seem to be something that is found always in impersonation.
For that matter, stereotypes have a role in comedy generally, they are often used as a way of taking a shot at the stereotypes themselves. So where does that fit in?

I think it's interesting that quite a few women on this thread who find drag offensive explicitly mention Lily Savage as a character they don't find offensive. We may not be able to explain why but I think it's because it's obvious that P O'G actually liked the character he was playing, it was someone he admired, he didn't either think or project that he was 'stepping down', he was playing a character who didn't give a shiny shit about anyone or anything.

What about John McLean then ? He is an FWR approved make-up wearer and very definitely is using it to feminise his features

No idea who this person is. I am not commenting on behalf of FWR, and don't assume anybody else is

Well here you are. From this very thread. And by no means the first time he has been spoken of approvingly on here.

NottonightJosepheen
John Maclean is a stunningly beautiful man who wears makeup and, I believe, 'feminine' clothes

But he is not a man in drag. He does not parody femininity. He is a man at ease with his masculinity. His biological sex. He is a man at ease with his 'femininity' too (note: this makes him a 'feminine' man, not a woman, not a 'not real man')

I think it's pretty weird and offensive

Yes and all woman that support muslims also have no problem with Al Qaeda.

It’s completely ridiculous to suggest that people who support one thing also wholeheartedly agree with every person within it and shows a complete lack of critical thinking.

A lot of drag is poking fun at gender stereotypes, something which is at the heart of feminism too.

To clarify - I find some bits of rad feminism to be anti working class woman because a lot of the time it appears to be woman with lots of choices (MC woman) telling woman with less choices in life (WC woman) that they are making wrong choices and they’re not allowed to do things, rather than trying to work towards a solution that means they wouldn’t feel they’d need to make certain choices.

Well here you are. From this very thread. And by no means the first time he has been spoken of approvingly on here.

Sorry, John McClean's fame has passed me by. I can't really conclude anything about John McClean from a photo. Again, not commenting on behalf of FWR or anyone else. Are you?

I've lost the thread of what it was that approval of John McClean (never heard of him) signifies. Did it prove something? Like 'women be crazy' 'women be irrational' 'ain't no pleasin' wimmin'?

merrymouse

In general I also don't think there is a lot of reason to switch male and female roles outside of special circumstances like schools or historical or experimental productions. I'm not worried about balance so much simply because I think it is so rarely convincing that it would not have any real effect.

Impersonations are a little different, be they of real or fictional characters, they aren't meant to be realistic and often are exaggerated as well, like a political cartoon. When its done well it can be really insightful, and when its not it tends to seem lame or mean. I always think the bar is whether they are saying something true - not nuanced, necessarily, but true. I posted far back on the thread a male impersonator whose character is a very stereotyped unregenerate male, but of course the point isn't to say that is what all or most men are like, it's to skewer certain ideas about men and women in our culture, and also I think we are sometimes meant to reflect on our own failings in that as well and that is a valid thing for comedy to ask of us but it's not very compatible with an offence focused culture . In other cases the impersonation is only opposite sex by chance, it's really about something else like a political view.

Drag is again a different kettle of fish. I absolutely think it can veer into denigrating women and being mean rather than insightful and I also think a lot of it is very poorly done, people think they can get dressed up and suddenly they are funny. And further as it's come to be seen as a kind of identity beyond being a specialised sort of theatre, it becomes questionable.
I'm not sure those things are intrinsic to it. I think there is a real exploration in gay culture about masculinity and femininity. Personally I think masculinity and femininity are not simply products of culture, but they are certainly really experienced in any case, and I think there can be for many gay men, and lesbians as well, a sense of having a significant relationship to both or wanting to somehow integrate them together. I see drag as coming out of that really, its a very male expression of femininity. Kind of like those jokes about "what would the world be like if men breastfed" it's "what would the world be like if women were men".

I don't think I would really expect women to be all that interested in or to "get" drag, because its sort of by men, for men, really. There are things that are similar for women and that's ok. What's a bit weird is that its become such a big thing.

*@Goosefoot
*
It goes beyond feminism to larger questions

I'm afraid you have it backwards. Feminism is the only theory that addresses the larger questions as they pertain to women.

Radical feminism is theory based on women as a class. So from this we question why do people from one class perform femininity while people from another class do not? Or if they do why is it in jest? Or why they do it to claim the subordinate status of those they are mimicking ( trans)?

And it's only by understanding how femininity relates to female subordination that you can understand the term "womanface" and what it means to perform it

I'm also thinking that women tend to have sympathies for gay men as an oppressed group ( similar to the misplaced sympathies for trans) and have been happy to let them off. But at the end of the day they're still men and although they're low in the male pecking order they're still above all women. Yes all.

What's a bit weird is that its become such a big thing

I think that is part of the problem. I don’t really care what small groups of people do in front of a specific audience. There might be something inherently sexist about the bird watching community, but if there is it doesn’t impact wider society.

However I think we have reached the point where any kind of drag is seen as innately virtuous because according to television it’s all about going on a journey and finding yourself.

Therefore questioning how stereotypes harm women or the message sometimes being given to children (a man wearing makeup is dressing up as a woman, adult clubs should include children) is wrong think.