Is female impersonation/drag offensive?

[dannybb]

Hi. As a teenage hairdressing apprentice I used to do a drag act in my spare time - a few decades ago. With more time on my hands I'm now thinking of returning to female impersonation - doing drag queen bingo and entertainment mainly in old peoples homes etc.

While I am (and always will be) very respectful of women I'm wondering if the era of men dressing as women to provide entertainment has had its day.

Has this now become offensive or inappropriate?

Any responses much appreciated!

I don't like it.

But I also don't think it should be banned or anything. And some of it I do think is funny but I'm still offended by it. I don't know. Maybe it has its place in some way, but I don't like how it seems to be mocking women and saying they look, sound, talk, like this when most of it is just harmful stereotypes.

(But I also don't like it when people compare it to blackface, I think it's something totally different and I know many black people who feel uncomfortable with the comparison.)

I have mixed feelings about this. In theory I'm dead against it. It exaggerates every stereotype about women and makes a mockery of womanhood. I agree with PPs who pointed out that it is essentially an oppressive class of people parodying those that they oppress, which is never ok.

On the other hand, I like Lily Savage and Dame Edna. I'm trying to figure out why I find them inoffensive and fun, while I find the general idea of drag distasteful. I think it may be something to do with the investment that's gone into creating an actual character, rather than just performing as a generic idea of a woman.

cat Yes, I also like RuPaul because as you say, he doesn't necessarily conform to gender stereotypes in his 'normal' clothing and life, and he doesn't seem to be one of those 'lolol I'm such a bitch, women smell, vaginas are disgusting' types. Because I have met a LOT of such gay guys and I fucking cannot stand them, every bit as awful as hyper masculine misogynists.

I hope someone shoots me before I'm trapped in an old persons home being 'entertained' by a man impersonating women.

Right there with you!

I didn't used to think it was but lately I've realised how in poor taste it is, given the wider context. It's not so much the dressing as a woman but the mockery of it all I guess, stereotyping. Since comparing it to black face I can't really see how one is offensive and one isn't?

Unfortunately what men can feel as liberating for themselves often is concomitant with the degradation or subjugation of women.

I have a great deal of appreciation for men who look for ways to liberate themselves from the constraints of patriarchy without going that route. They are few and far between.

If it had never existed, and a bunch of blokes sat down and invented it in 2019, how would that conversation go?

"Wouldn't it be a giggle to dress up as a grotesque version of women, Brian? We could like, trowel on make-up, and wear massive wigs. Huge heels, and don't forget to fake some breasts, cos women have those, don't they? What else are women like? Umm, sequinned dresses, bitchy jibes, caricatured mannerisms. Got it'

Good idea, Kevin. Now how can we do similar for black/disabled/religious mimicry? Any thoughts? Also, my straight friend Mike wants to do a skit about gay men, asked if we could give him tips. I told him limp wrist and mincing. Anything else? It's not meant to be taken seriously, after all. It's not like we're saying that's how things really are. It's all a bit of a larf, innit? It could become part of our culture!

........

Which groups are ok to lampoon? Which would you never dream of cariacaturiing? And why?
When is it ok, and when not?
If the answers are only women/cos we always have/I don't know
then I think you have your answer.

These days, I'm just sick of it. Like a lot of other people on the thread, I never found it offensive but now I do. Maybe that's partly because of the misogyny coming from LGBT groups and things like drag queen story time.

But I don't think it was always misogynistic or always has to be. I think the thing that was funny about Dame Edna was that it subverted the stereotype of a harmless old lady. In a good way, not a misogynistic way. Similar-ish to Mrs Merton.

I haven't watched it in years but I loved Torch Song Trilogy. I don't remember it being offensive. Like plattercake I'd be interested to know why it appeals and what it means to you.

I hate it, and I hope in years to come it will be looked back on as every bit as offensive as blackface.

Can't stand it. Taking the piss out of women. Misogynistic, sexist crap.

I hate it, and I can't imagine that there aren't other forms of 'entertainment' that residents in a home would rather see?

I've always found it unnerving and repulsive. I'm going to wait and see which care home Zuttze chooses for herself and then I'll book myself a place there.

I hate it, and I can't imagine that there aren't other forms of 'entertainment' that residents in a home would rather see?

Yes, I’d rather watch a bad juggler.

But I also wonder if as hairdresser he could not offer services pro bono or for a reasonable (discounted) fee to the residents (hair cuts, styling, blow dries) if possible. If there is an on site place this may not be allowed, but I think worth looking into.

It's an ugly caricature of women, so yes it's offensive. I would feel sorry for the elderly ladies forced to sit through this and view it as entertainment.

Thanks for asking though, rather than just carrying on regardless.

I’ve always found drag bizarre and unfunny. The extreme make-up and sexualised outfits make me cringe, and I just don’t get why the jokes are (supposedly) funny. MN is the first place I ever saw drag described as offensive, and that instantly chimed with my own feelings. The clever feminists of MN dissected it in a way that made it really clear to me why I didn’t like it.

There used to a Drag Queen bingo night at my local gay bar back in the day, to begin with most of the humour was actually directed at the conservative and repressed attitude of our region, and as a result was more political comedy than anything else (the drag was also quite subtle, more of a man in a dress than a dame in panto).

Like others here I like some of the classic drag artists, who used character more as a means of social commentary, but I get nothing from modern acts. They tend to be not nearly as clever, pretty lazy in their sterotyping and picking on lesbians disproportionately. There was an article in the Guardian a few months back about political drag acts and everything from the article to the comments was just horribly misogynistic, seemingly justified by the fact that the targets were mostly right wing women.

I never used to but now I see it as mocking women.

I hate it. Got into big trouble at my dc primary school when I pointed out the sexism/misogyny of young male teachers dressed up in drag at the school pantomime (yes, yes I know, the dame) with fucking balloons stuffed down their dresses for breasts. Was ghosted and treated as a misery and a killjoy for years - some people literally never spoke to me again after that. But I'm glad I made the complaint and would do so again.

I agree with many of these comments, and wonder this: would your act (or any drag act) be as funny/entertaining if you changed nothing about it, costume, mannerisms etc, but it were performed by a woman?

If so I guess that's something, but if not-if the humor or entertainment value lies in a male person performing these stereotypes of female bodies and mannerisms-then I think you have your answer.

Personally I think the concept feels like punching down. It's only entertaining because everyone's aware that the performers are members of the superior caste. Isn't it a hoot that they sometimes lower themselves to imitate the perceived ridiculousness of the inferior caste?

And then to add salt to the wound, they imitate not just the natural physical characteristics of women, but also the feminine beauty standards society imposes on girls and women, and for which we are punished for both noncompliance and over compliance. (Too little feminine performance = ugly, despicable; too much = ditz, slut. Too old = jump on an ice floe and disappear.)

I think that with your skills and experience there could be lots of better ways you could do good things for older people , wearing whatever clothes/make up you like.

If drag has been invented by straight white men then we would all condemn it. In my opinion it's given a free pass because it's part of gay culture. Taking exception to the caricature of womanhood is easily conflated with homophobia by those wishing to take offense.

Its really interesting to me that cultural appropriation has become such a widely adopted social taboo. Remember that girl who became an international hate figure because she wore a Chinese dress to the prom? I think The Left needs to be consistent in this matter. The fact that gay guys get a "free pass" to openly mock women is very interesting. What does this say about the status of women in our society?

I do think that drag is slightly different than other forms of cultural appropriation. It has been going for so long that it has become a pastiche of itself. Its a parody of a parody. I can also appreciate the artistry that goes into it - it truly is an art form. However, as close as gay men may feel to women - having often been excluded from male social networks during childhood and adolescence - they are not women. They should be mindful of their relative male priveledge when performing.

Like many people I used to love RU Paul's drag race..tried to watch it recently and it was painful. What's the tagline for the show? RU paul is looking for a queen with "charisma, Uniqueness, Nerve, and Talent." AKA a cunt! When someone tells you who they are believe then the first time...

I fucking hate drag, find it so offensive that someone would dress up to.take the piss out of women. The only one who gets a pass from me is Lily Savage. I don't know why that character is different, it just is. I think because it's obvious it was a character he admired.

Oh God - I LOVE drag, and drag queens. I always have done, and I hope that it doesn't die out. Drag is fabulous, darlings!

I don't believe that drag is a mockery of women and womanhood; it's far more subtle than that. And as a pp said, it's also an art form.

I agree with many of these comments, and wonder this: would your act (or any drag act) be as funny/entertaining if you changed nothing about it, costume, mannerisms etc, but it were performed by a woman?

There are women who perform as drag artists. It's actually a growing thing. And in answer to the question, yes, it can be as funny and entertaining. Drag doesn't actually have much to do with the sex of the performer. Drag is an attitude, more than anything. Drag, basically, is the camp approach to life.

I used to dress up in a very over-the-top way in my youth, and some of my outfits were verging on drag. I always used to say that I was damned if I would let the fact I was female stop me dragging up.

Yes it is offensive, I presume you wouldn't consider dressing up as a black and white minstrel either?

What BickerinBrattle said.

I have never liked drag, always been uncomfortable with it and am even more so these days. It's inappropriate and dated stereotyping of women. Not funny at all.