Is female impersonation/drag offensive?

[dannybb]

Hi. As a teenage hairdressing apprentice I used to do a drag act in my spare time - a few decades ago. With more time on my hands I'm now thinking of returning to female impersonation - doing drag queen bingo and entertainment mainly in old peoples homes etc.

While I am (and always will be) very respectful of women I'm wondering if the era of men dressing as women to provide entertainment has had its day.

Has this now become offensive or inappropriate?

Any responses much appreciated!

It's anti feminist to suggest that any old opinion is a feminist opinion.

As I say, I practice femininity, but I understand feminist theory enough to know that it does make me kind of a sell out.

I disagree. Behave how ever you want. Just do it because you are a human being, not because of your sex.

Merry mouse

What has your comment at 11.46 got to do with anything that you quoted?

@merrymouse
If it were about being a human being plenty more men would wear make up and shiny clothing.
Trans seem to get off on the humiliation or sissification ( a big theme in porn- being forced to be feminine) of dressing like a woman
If it wasn't about that, if it was just about choice, men (who generally do whatever they want) wouldn't wear button down shirts and flat shoes on a night out, they'd wear what women wear - and yet they don't

I always find it interesting that, when faced with no valid argument or justification for a set of beliefs, some individuals only recourse is to start throwing insults.

Homophobic, full of hate...the usual crap that gets slung at women who try to say that stereotyping is wrong and demeaning. Especially sad to have to defend this position on a feminist board.

Juells well said, nice one-liner.

I think this thread was a decent exploration of why drag is offensive to women and we made our points well

It is a decent exploration of why some women think drag is offensive to women. Some of the points may well be valid and well made but ultimately I simply don't care.

I don't particularly like drag - although as mentioned Dame Edna and Cissie and Ada seem to be non problematic for most (all posters? ) but I simply don't share the visceral reactions of some of you. I would campaign to ban strip clubs, lap dancing clubs, legalised brothels - but drag clubs? No, I would not. I don't personally feel offended by drag - and clearly given the audience profile of the one and only drag show I've been at, nor do many other women.

Wearing makeup to specifically feminise your male features while endorsing a sexist stereotype is the wrong way to wear make up

What about John McLean then ? He is an FWR approved make-up wearer and very definitely is using it to feminise his features.

Yes but the "women are different and like different things " is an anti feminist point of view. Feel free to hate on feminists, feel free to declare you're not a feminist, but what you can't do is state that feminist theory -- which is a criticism of femininity and analysis of how femininity is rooted in our subordination- doesn't exist

Has anyone expressed hate for feminists? Has anyone said feminist theory doesn't exist? Such drama.

I am not a feminist. I don't think it's a particularly useful term tbh.

As for feminist theory - yours is not the only option available. I'm sure there are plenty of feminists (or as you would presumably put it " women who call themselves feminists") would disagree with your interpretation.

I am super-uncomfortable with this idea that there is such a narrow set of ideas that count as feminist and that women who have other views are somehow anti-feminist. i would agree that women can have anti-feminist or anti-woman views, but there is a definite sense here that those who don't toe a certain line are going to simply be silenced by saying they don't conform to the orthodoxy.

Talking about "womanface" is not some absolute clear and free answer to the question either of drag or female impersonation more generally. It's worthwhile to consider that what actually constitutes blackface and how we should view it is a real question among caadenics and philosophers who are actually open minded about thinking about ideas - mind you many won't go there because they are silenced in the exact same way GC academics are.
There have been a few indicators of nuance in the discussion but frankly not many, a heck of a lot of people seem to be going from, sometimes drag/impersonation seems to come from a sexist attitude, straight to, therefore they must always be an anti-woman act. Pretty much zero discussion on the nature of theatre more generally which is extremely relevant when we are talking about settings that are theatrical rather than some sort of claim to an identity. How far do we go with this idea that people can only represent their own group on the stage and how do we decide when it is ok?

These are things women in good faith can have a wide variety of ideas about.

I do care.

When somebody says they don't like the word being used to describe them (paki, slag, cis) I think we should care.

Women on this thread have said over and again that they don't like the way these men parody women and told of how it makes them feel.

I think we should care about that too.

I am a feminist.

@Goosefoot

There aren't a narrow set of ideas that count as feminist but "choice" feminism is liberal feminism. We're going to have to say what we are. Radical feminists have theory that disputes the element of choice when it comes to femininity. Libfems think there are no social powers behind it.

It's fine to be a libfem but it's anti feminist to say that any point of view can be feminism. This is how we ended up with "anyone can be a woman" and pumps coming on here mansplaining why porn was empowering

"Pimps"

Lots of woman dislike lots of things, we don’t go around calling anyone that doesn’t dislike the same things anti-woman.

Woman make up half the population ffs, hardly a small group that are all going to all think the same. And with a society that manages to claim offence at every little thing, you are never going to please everyone.

Choice feminism is liberal feminism
Happy to be a liberal feminist then.
How is it any better being told what to do or what to think by another woman than by a man?
Women can make their own choices and other women not agreeing that they should which is what is being implied is really fucking insulting actually.

Women can make their own choices and other women not agreeing that they should which is what is being implied is really fucking insulting actually.

But...but...but...I've had to accept that some people are more perceptive than I am. A lot of what radical feminism says was anathema to me when I was younger, because I couldn't see it, it didn't affect me, I lived in a cosy bubble and had never (and still haven't) ever been disadvantaged by being female. Quite the opposite. However I've had to broaden my outlook when I see how other women are oppressed, and how that's related to the patriarchy - a word I feel embarrassed to use, but it describes something that's real. If you dismiss what some women claim is damaging because you don't feel the same way, or it isn't in your experience, you're doing a disservice to all women.

I agree lime
I’ve seen more anti-woman views presented by radfems on FWR than I have anywhere else on the internet. Sad really.

Yeah, lime is totally 100% on the side of women

How is it being "on the side of women" to not agree with choice for women?
Or is that bit just getting ignored?

@Earlywalker same

What about John McLean then ? He is an FWR approved make-up wearer and very definitely is using it to feminise his features.

No idea who this person is. I am not commenting on behalf of FWR, and don't assume anybody else is.

If you dismiss what some women claim is damaging because you don't feel the same way, or it isn't in your experience, you're doing a disservice to all women.
Hypocrisy. There are a huge amount of women who feel the same as lime, myself included- in that it's damaging to force or limit women's choices and police their opinions. To feminism as well as society.

Lots of woman dislike lots of things, we don’t go around calling anyone that doesn’t dislike the same things anti-woman.

I have no idea who anybody on this board is. I can't criticise anybody personally. I can only criticise an argument that doesn't seem to make sense.

Talking about women having a victim mentality when they are voicing their feelings about an entertainment which frequently references the smell of their vagina is utterly pro woman.

@LimeKiwi

I'm glad you're happy to be a liberal feminist. Liberal feminism has no theory of femininity, which is why libfems were so happy to jump on the trans train.

Radical feminism does have theory of femininity, and that theory happens to dovetail with the thoughts of a lot of women on this thread about why they feel uncomfortable with drag

Agree. I find a lot of radical feminism very anti - working class woman too, which is quite a large proportion.

I also find it bizarre how it’s suddenly acceptable now to judge whole category’s and groups of people based on individual comments and opinions.