Is female impersonation/drag offensive?

[dannybb]

Hi. As a teenage hairdressing apprentice I used to do a drag act in my spare time - a few decades ago. With more time on my hands I'm now thinking of returning to female impersonation - doing drag queen bingo and entertainment mainly in old peoples homes etc.

While I am (and always will be) very respectful of women I'm wondering if the era of men dressing as women to provide entertainment has had its day.

Has this now become offensive or inappropriate?

Any responses much appreciated!

Blackface began in the early 1800s and was traditionally white people painting their faces black and calling themselves ‘slave’

Black people were being caricatured in main stream media until the eighties. If you think that all relates to a specific kind of caricature in America in the 1800's, or that those caricatures are no longer harmful you have led a very sheltered life.

You may think woman right now are oh so oppressed but comparing it to the oppression of black people in the 19th century is abhorrent.

Unfortunately some women are still virtually and actually enslaved, because of their sex. However, as above, sexism and racism did not end in the 19th century and racist depictions of black people did not begin or end in 19th century America.

So interesting seeing people absolutely determined that women will accept something that so many of us find offensive sexist and oppressive - insisting that women must be complicit in our oppression by men. Not allowing us to make comparisons unless pre - sanctioned by them.

I'm watching similar oppressive behaviour on the pup thread with individuals arguing that we must accept fetishists rights to groom children and engage everyone in their fetish without consent.

Women - know your place - and here's this week's list of current porn / fetish / breaching boundary behaviour that you are to comply with and make your children available to experience.

Who's doing that though truth?
You like what you like.
Nobody's insisting you have to like anything.
It's called a difference of opinion.
Lots of women do like it, nobody's saying you must too

I assume from"Blackface has a painful and long history in the US" that the writer is in the US.

Some people seem to be aware of the history of blackface in the US, but be too young or simply unaware of the history of racist stereotypes in mainstream media in the UK and the rest of Europe.

I have no control over my dark skin, or my lips, ass, or nose.

And women have no control over the size of their breasts. Lucky women can experience racism and sexism.

So interesting seeing people absolutely determined that women will accept something that so many of us find offensive sexist and oppressive

And so many similarities with threads about golliwogs.

I do have control over the clothes I wear and how I perform femininity or not.

As though 'not performing femininity' has ever been a protection against sexist abuse or discrimination.

I said began merry.
As a mixed race person please do not tell me i’ve led a sheltered life with regards to racism just because I’ve called it out.

Woman do not own makeup, heals, dresses, sexy voices etc we can change most things about our body and appearance through surgery, clothing and beauty products. We cannot change our biology which is the root of our oppression which drag queens do not aim to steal or claim to have.

Black people cannot change the colour of their skin, this is the absolute root of all oppression we have faced.

Woman and men are different in many many aspects, Black people are oppressed because of one difference - the colour of their skin.

As for the ‘men wearing makeup this way is ok, but not this way’ that’s utterly ridiculous. People’s makeup changes according to the times. In the early 00’s I wore blue eyeshadow, had shaved drawn on eyebrows and had never heard of contour - things change and that’s allowed. We do not own makeup styles.

You don’t have to accept it or enjoy it, I doubt many of you opposing it would ever find yourself in a position where it’s on anyway but I have a big issue with the comparison of blackface.

You're right, nobody's disputing biology.
You're entitled to be offended by so called "womanface" and I'm entitled to think "woman face, FFS, as if"

Sex is biological, as I said many times. Makeup and stereotypes are easily changeable.

Use your own term, Blackface and it’s connotations is taken.

Using ‘Womanface’? It’s 2019 men can wear makeup and dresses and flaunt around in fake boobs. Drag was a way for gay people to entertain themselves and flaunt themselves. Blackface centred around taking the piss out of slaves and the direct cause for them being enslaved.

Think what you want, hate it if you want, I just do not think it’s acceptable to compare.

It’s a parody of women and I never felt comfortable with it but couldn’t articulate why. So, OP, do what you like. But be aware that many of us now find drag unacceptable. Adorn yourself any way you like but don’t try to pretend you’re a comedy woman.

When I was a young woman- so a long time ago but not 1850-it was considered entirely OK for white actors to black up to play Othello.

I'm genuinely confused about how wearing make-up and being black can be seen as the same thing, which is what people think if drag is a comparison to black face? I'll have to go back and re-read I think 🤔

OP, I love drag and don't find it offensive in the slightest. My own views on it are that it's creative and expressive and when paired with comedy, a great form of entertainment. I envy drag queens and think it's a fantastic way for people to explore different sides of them that they often don't have the confidence for when they're just themselves.

I'm genuinely confused about how wearing make-up and being black can be seen as the same thing

Read carefully what people have said.

Because nobody has said that.

Will you give your explanation why you think that it's acceptable to pretend to be something you're not (black a woman) for laughs. And more importantly why it's overwhelmingly a one way thing, that is the powerful mocking the powerless?

Lots of women do like it, nobody's saying you must too

Lots of women love disgusting anti-female jokes. Are the rest of us supposed to think they're OK because some women don't understand what's going on? It's a lack of comprehension.

I said began merry.

But you are wrong. The European tradition of racist entertainment started centuries before the Mayflower. Race was an issue for Sajid Javid because the average Tory party member grew up learning that racism was acceptable on ITV at 7.30 in the evening, not because they were alive in 19th century America.

As a mixed race person please do not tell me i’ve led a sheltered life with regards to racism just because I’ve called it out.

This is an anonymous forum. I cannot see race or sex. I can only judge the quality of your argument.

we can change most things about our body and appearance through surgery

We really can't.

Black people are oppressed because of one difference - the colour of their skin.

Both race and sex based oppression are linked to stereotypical expectations based on appearance.

but I have a big issue with the comparison of blackface.

Because you seem to have put 'blackface' in a little box that only relates to 19th century America.

It's a lack of comprehension

See, you're being patronising there to other women with a differing opinion assuming they "don't know what's going on or lack of comprehension" if they think differently to you.
You're entitled to your views, but other women are entitled to theirs too, doesn't mean they don't comprehend.

I'm genuinely confused about how wearing make-up and being black can be seen as the same thing

Yes, you are confused.

Nobody cares if men wear make up or how they wear make up.

They care when men wear make up to portray a narrow stereotype. Drag Queens don't just wear make up, they change the appearance of their body shape to look more female.

As somebody pointed out up thread, the concept of drag enforces the idea that a man who is fabulous and flamboyant belongs on stage and can only be understood as somebody who is pretending to be female.

Will you give your explanation why you think that it's acceptable to pretend to be something you're not
Drag Queens aren't pretending to be women though. They are dressing in women's fashion/make-up for entertainment purposes, not trying to pass as women, or be included in things that specifically relate to women. They are taking the piss out themselves as much as they are of stupid stereotypes. The illusion of drag isn't so much to fool people into thinking they are female, it's transforming into someone who looks nothing like the stripped down version of you. I don't think the same motives can be said for blackface....

I want to explore why 'flamboyant' gay men feel the need (and the entitlement) to masquerade as women in order to feel the confidence they don't have when they are just themselves
This doesn't just apply to drag queens though, people in theatre often find a new confidence when they put on a mask, actors can tap into different parts of themselves when they adopt different roles, people with alternate personas too.

As far as fake breasts/hip pads etc are concerned, clothes designed for women generally don't look good or fit properly on a male body (even ones designed for drag) and there is already an increasing number of drag queens who don't pad or their style is more 'gender bending'.

Nobody cares if men wear make up or how they wear make up.
Maybe read the last page merry because you seemed to have missed some posts.