Is female impersonation/drag offensive?

[dannybb]

Hi. As a teenage hairdressing apprentice I used to do a drag act in my spare time - a few decades ago. With more time on my hands I'm now thinking of returning to female impersonation - doing drag queen bingo and entertainment mainly in old peoples homes etc.

While I am (and always will be) very respectful of women I'm wondering if the era of men dressing as women to provide entertainment has had its day.

Has this now become offensive or inappropriate?

Any responses much appreciated!

I gave an example about the solicitor but really we're talking about feminist theory so it doesn't matter if you "believe" a woman can be sacked for not wearing make up.

Feminist theory is that women are obliged to perform femininity in society in order to reap certain gains, such as employment. Some fields of employment expect women to be made up, sometimes heavily. Other fields expect minimal make up as a sign of professionalism. I've been in workplaces where every single woman was made up, so we can extrapolate from this that in the interview process they binned the women who didn't conform. You can use any pretext for not employing someone.

Also just because you personally have got away with not wearing make up doesn't mean feminist theory on this isn't watertight.

They don't dress like typical women though do they, neither do transwomen. They're trying to resurrect some 1950s domesticated and/or pornified version of femininity that feminists have been trying to shelve

The transwoman at work is completely identifiable as trans because of their “old fashioned” choice of clothes, like a stepford wife. T- bar/mary jane shoes, tan tights, on the knee skirt (in tweed often), matching jacket with silk shirt or polo neck. Carefully coiffed hair, tan handbag, accessories and make up.

She looks like a suburban housewife circa 1975. Doubly sticks out because our department is physically active so the “uniform” for women is boots, trousers, polo shirt and tied back hair.

Drag us becoming almost mainstream from what i’ve seen of very heavily made up teenagers!!

A good book for those who are struggling with the theory of femininity as subordination is Beauty and Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys

so we can extrapolate from this that in the interview process they binned the women who didn't conform. You can use any pretext for not employing someone

Can you? What percentage of women don’t wear make up in the general population? It’s probably low, so you would need a fairly large department to extrapolate.

What was the workplace? If it’s fashion or health and beauty related I’d expect that job to attract women who wear make up. If it’s a physics lab, not so much.

Social pressure to wear make up is very high. It’s unusual not to.

Feminist theory is that women are obliged to perform femininity in society in order to reap certain gains, such as employment. Some fields of employment expect women to be made up, sometimes heavily. Other fields expect minimal make up as a sign of professionalism

In the context of a legal office that bears absolutely no relation to reality. In my working life of over 35 years, mostly in 2 of the largest Scottish firms. I have never seen this expectation. You are deluded if you think employers aren't employing women who "fail to perform femininity".

An employer won't employ someone of either sex who turns up dirty, scruffy or unkempt or fails to display an ability to do, or a real enthusiasm for, the job.

The transwoman at work is completely identifiable as trans because of their “old fashioned” choice of clothes, like a stepford wife. T- bar/mary jane shoes, tan tights, on the knee skirt (in tweed often), matching jacket with silk shirt or polo neck. Carefully coiffed hair, tan handbag, accessories and make up

Other than the make- up your sneering description fits at least one of my female partners. I'm sure if you met me you'd write me off as a "Stepford Wife" too.

And it is starting to tire that some ‘feminists’ are constantly implying that woman who make an effort with appearance are hurting other woman

The problem isn’t ‘making an effort’ or being ‘fabulous’ The problem is the stereotyped performance of being female. I am really happy for a man to wear lipstick and heels as an expression of his own personality (and some men do).

However it is disingenuous to pretend that a man wearing large fake mammary glands isn’t dressing up as a woman.

doesn't matter if you "believe" a woman can be sacked for not wearing make up

I’ve never felt pressure to wear make up, but it’s certainly true that a woman can get chucked off the red carpet at Cannes because her heels are too low.

It's the bitchy, catty, slutty behaviour they perform too which is offensive to women, making out that that's what we're like. When men performed in blackface it wasn't just that their look was offensive, it was how they behaved in a stereotypically negative way, according to Wikipedia they showed "buffoonish, lazy, superstitious, cowardly, and lascivious characters, who stole, lied pathologically, and mangled the English language." You could say exactly the same for drag artists, they reverse feminism and I have no idea why even liberal minded women think that it's hilarious to send up women like this.

I see Drag as extreme/parody of femininity. Drag Kings are becoming more popular. Never been offended by Queens just for being Queens.

“Fish” because fishtail dresses?

Oh purhlease!

Blackface was doing sketches about black people being happy buffoons at a time that they were enslaved. The returning character in minstrel shows was literally called ‘slave’. It’s an utterly ridiculous comparison to make to someone who dresses up like a barbie doll and puts on a sexy and funny persona.

Some of you either have a victim complex greater than i first thought or are severely uneducated on black rights and history to keep using the comparison.

Makeup does not belong to woman. Anyone can put slap on their face. Actors often wear fat suits to look fatter and lots of woman choose to wear fake breasts. Drag queens do not even claim to be woman, the sketches do not revolve around pretending to be enslaved woman or woman in religious countries.

As for the ‘sacked for not wearing makeup’ thing, nothing to do with drag queens and certainly not the fault of woman who do wear makeup, if it’s even true.

In a way, conversations like this show how far we’ve come in woman’s rights in the UK if this is what certain feminists have to moan about.

as extreme/parody of femininity.

And the seventies sitcom 'Mind your language' presented parodies of racial stereotypes. It was still racist.

Blackface was doing sketches about black people being happy buffoons at a time that they were enslaved.

At least get the history right. Black face was part of mainstream British TV until the end of the seventies.

I especially dislike the term.s used...cunty. fishy.
Used to describe how woman like an artist is.
Bitch.
Gurrrrrlllll
Over exaggerated aspects of feminity that only bolster the most extreme view of what makes a woman.
14 inches of foundation and spewing vitriol.
Drag has impacted make up techniques. Women now "baking" their foundation with heavy layers of powder, leaving their skin "snatched". Coco brown stripes of contour on top, 3 inch false lashes and eyeshadow that looks like Las Vegas on steroids. Awful. Women trying took like men trying to look like women.
As theatre I dont know if I rate it. The audience are usually pissed. The act is usually lip synching and a sort of floor show or the queen showering the audience with insults.
With the exception of Truxie Mattel who has used drag to launch a career. Which is questionable.
I heard Raja sing live....I wanted to die.
And if you express anything but adoration you are a hateful bitch.
Cant win

lots of woman choose to wear fake breasts.

And they are actually women.

You might as well claim that black face is fine because people sometimes use make up to cover up vitiligo.

Early walker and other posters who support this form of entertainment are just going to have to get used to the new idea that women have a right to not like something.

Who said you don't have a right to like something?
Nobody's said you have to like something (don't think I have anyway, can't speak for anyone else!)
OP asked for opinions and as always, some women like something, some don't mind.
As we're all different.

Drag queens do not even claim to be woman, the sketches do not revolve around pretending to be enslaved woman or woman in religious countries.

Using your logic Jim Davidson's Chalky character isn't racist because slavery in America ended in 1865.

Not liking something that feels like taking the piss!

Nobody has addressed why it seems to be the case that the oppressor group mainly takes the piss out of the oppressed group whites/blacks or men/women and surely that's the wrong way around.

You'd think.

No one said you have to like it, as I said You’re obviously not the target audience.

Blackface began in the early 1800s and was traditionally white people painting their faces black and calling themselves ‘slave’.

Drag became popular as a way for gay people to express themselves in underground clubs. And was not created to offend woman.

You may think woman right now are oh so oppressed but comparing it to the oppression of black people in the 19th century is abhorrent.

I found this Feminist Current article explains it really well.

I think the two are definitely comparable. Have you read Property by Valerie Martin? Excellent book she does just that.

Don’t like it won’t watch won’t pander to it. Made me uncomfortable even as a child - instinctively.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/api6i2/asking_black_women_only_drag_blackface

Discussion on the subject on reddit.

I thought this quote explained it nicely.

"In my opinion, I do not think drag and blackface are in any way, shape, or form comparable. Blackface has a painful and long history in the US - drag does not. As far as I know, drag has never been used as a tool to institutionally oppress women, as blackface has. Women are not born with 6 inch towering heels, full faces of make up, and huge wigs. Makeup and femininity have nothing to do with being a woman. Blackface mocks the features black people were born with, coupled with racist notions of intelligence. I have no control over my dark skin, or my lips, ass, or nose. I do have control over the clothes I wear and how I perform femininity or not. To say that drag and blackface are the same, in my opinion, says that to be a woman is to act like a bimbo, wear skin tight dresses and high heels, and wear 29304 pounds of makeup."

Most GC feminists have a problem with drag. And most also have a problem with blackface. That doesn't mean they are directly comparable.