A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

Just popping on to say @Barracker you can join medical ethics boards as a lay-person, have a look here if you're interested.

There is no happy ending in either of the paths this story could have gone.

I am not going to comment on mental age as I don't know enough but social services will likely not allow her or her family to keep the baby due to the risk.

I do find it scary to think the courts can force anyone to have an abortion regardless but, it does sound like the poor woman's mum doesn't have the womans best interest at heart. If the mum is able to care for the baby it's likely the woman would have to leave her home and likely she wont understand why she has to leave.

A heartbreaking case all around.

The grandmother wants her grandchild

Yep. That midwife of a mother who didn't realise her daughter was in her second trimester. The mother who didn't believe in contraception or abortion, wanted the grandchild. Nothing to see here.

@teyem Just trying to move the Overton window on mumsnet because I'm still having my trans posts deleted

@teyem The comment somebody made that this was about the "right" to enjoy sex just sounds like something straight from the pimp lobby. That's why I gave such an opposing rant

The family have already failed to protect their child, so cannot be trusted to protect another.

Are you actually serious? Do you have any idea of the numbers of children who are sexually abused every year where their parents don’t have a fucking clue it’s happening? Should we remove them and their siblings from their parents care on the basis that they’ve ‘failed to protect’ them? Or should we go a step further and remove all children from any parents who have ever had anything awful happen to one of their children? Where would you like to draw the line?

I’m making no comment on the suitability of the grandmother to raise the child. It’s an absolutely horrific situation for all concerned. But none of us know the circumstances of the conception and unless it emerges that the grandmother knowingly allowed a predator to access her, or was aware she was having a sexual relationship without contraception then this is utter bollocks.

@Ginger1982

I'm not suggesting a nine year old can make a choice about having a baby. But we certainly wouldn't force them to have a termination against their wishes.

I think the whole 9 year old thing is mis-leading for many reasons.
Any 9year old who has experienced penertrative sex has been raped.
Very few 9 years could become pregnant the vast majority or pre-purbertal therefore both penertratio and child birth would be medically harmful.
Neither of these things apply in this case so talking about actual 9 year old's in unhelpful.

To say ‘this woman is having her voice taken away’ is wrong; a woman- physically yes but mentally a 6-9 yr old. Would you allow a 7 yr old to have that choice? Situations like this need to be decided on practicalities; the mother has failed to protect her daughter, so I doubt her judgement is reliable for raising a baby. I agree a termination is the right thing but questions should be asked why it’s took so long and I hope there is better steps put in place to protect a very vulnerable woman who has been abused.

I wish people would stop refering to 9 year olds.

She is not 9.

She is a woman in her 20s with moderate learning disabilities and a mental illness.

She is an incredibly vulnerable adult.

She is not a child.

An incredibly intelligent child should not be treated as an adult.

An adult with learning disabilities is not a child.

The article cannot give enough information to really know whether she consented to sex or was raped, whether her mother has ulterior motives of wanting a grandchild or is led by extreme religious beliefs or for how long she knew she was pregnant .

Refering to vulnerable mentally ill and intellectually disabled adults as children is incredibly regressive and inaccurate though.

It's lazy emotive journalism to use mental age which is so misleading. She's not 9. She's a very, very vulnerable adult woman, but not a child. It's not the same.

The comment somebody made that this was about the "right" to enjoy sex just sounds like something straight from the pimp lobby.

Oh, for heavens sake. This has nothing to do with fun feminism, choicey choice or the pimp lobby.

It is about safeguarding a vulnerable adult.

An adult woman who lacks capacity has become pregnant. There is a dispute about the best way to proceed - and because this woman lacks capacity, the best way to proceed must be decided for her. Her mother and day-to-day to carer wishes the pregnancy to proceed. SWs feel the pregnancy should be terminated. Both consider they have the woman's best interests at heart. The court of protection has adjudicated the dispute.

We do not know the full circumstances because we have not seen the full judgement.

Adults who lack capacity have rights but must be protected from harm. Harm is often a relative matter and not a Manichean choice, which is why the court of protection exists. It's not nice. It's not pleasant. Seemingly unconscionable choices have to be made.

Pimp lobby. JFC.

Horrible fucking country. 22 weeks old. The grandmother wants her grandchild but the fucking state knows 'best'...I am so glad to be an American.

Oh yes, America. Where Alabama and Minnesota have no laws terminating parental rights in rape cases, forcing children to share custody of the babies they’ve been forced to have, with their rapists. Yep, you’ve really got the moral high ground over every other country in the world. Aren’t you lucky.

The article strongly implies that the woman would be a danger to her child due to her mood disorder.

If she did give birth to a live baby, as the baby were cared for by its maternal grandmother, the woman at the centre of the case would probably have to leave her mother's care and be cared for elsewhere.

There is no outcome which leaves this woman bringing up her baby with help.

It's also very likely that someone with a mood disorder is taking a cocktail of medications which have already impacted foetal development - possibly lithium, possibly antipsychotics, possibly anticonvulsants... Or has had to come off these, or indeed was taking them fo manyr weeks before her pregnancy was discovered.

It's not going to be a straight forward situation and it's nothing like a pregnant 9 year old.

Just putting vulnerable women on contraception leaves them open to abuse. There needs to be more nuance and protection of vulnerable adults.
If a child was born and adopted they can be told the parent has ld. Why is that a problem? In a compassionate society mother and child could be cared for, separately or together.
We should protect vulnerable people from abuse, but often protecting people from themselves or keeping them powerless is for the benefit or protection of others.
If she appeals it will likely be too late. No happy ending here. How is the mother to blame? She may be but it isn't stated

@AmeriAnn oh yeah because your country is so great when it comes to abortion 🙄

@PouncerDarling my point is that I don't believe a 9 year old could make that decision or have any idea what 'wishing' to have the baby ultimately meant so, in my opinion, their 'wishes' wouldn't count.

But we're obviously talking about a different scenario here.

Article states police are investigating how she became pregnant, more worrying is the mother is a midwife 🙄 Jesus her parenting skills are crap before we start on her inability to notice a pregnancy 🙄

The grandmother wants her grandchild but the fucking state knows 'best'
The grandmother's wishes are not the priority here, because the pregnant woman is not her incubator. The court of protection has a duty to decide what is in the best interests of the woman, so yes, the state does know best.

There will be a lot more heartbreaking information on this case than reported in the media and I trust, armed with the full facts that we don't know, the decision was not taken lightly and is in the best interests of the woman.

This is a very upsetting case.
The state is effectively saying she can't be a competent mother so the child must be aborted. Since when did the state care if a birth mother was competent, or even necessary for a child? It is planning surrogacy laws which will make it so that a surrogate has no rights over the baby. So which is it? Are birth mothers important or are they not? It seems the state can do what it wants.
I do think it's a little suspicious that the grandmother didn't know her daughter was pregnant, but how do we know she didn't have a chat with her daughter and the daughter said she wanted to keep the baby and the grandmother agreed to support her? A conversation like that wouldn't become public. Because the grandmother hasn't paid the birth mother, suddenly she has no claim to the child at all in the way commissioning parents of a surrogate would?

The bottom line is the woman should have just been asked in language she could understand what she wanted to do. If she wanted the baby the grandmother could have helped her. I think the state forcing an abortion on anyone is wrong

The bottom line is the woman should have just been asked in language she could understand what she wanted to do
Do you have any knowledge or experience of vulnerable adults with learning disabilities and complex mental health issues? I'm guessing not, from your comments.
Thankfully, the people who made this decision do, and would have considered all the relevant information.

Anyone using the term mental age of a 9 year old quite obviously don’t know what they are talking about. She is an adult with a learning disability.

I thought they stopped using the term mental age of a child years ago because the majority of people really don’t know what it means

The bottom line is the woman should have just been asked in language she could understand what she wanted to do. If she wanted the baby the grandmother could have helped her. I think the state forcing an abortion on anyone is wrong

It always amazes me that people after reading one article and with no experience believe they know better than highly trained, very experienced SWs and psychologists and judges. Like we're going to say, "oh explain it to her, that's brilliant, we literally never thought of explaining it".

The comment somebody made that this was about the "right" to enjoy sex just sounds like something straight from the pimp lobby

It was me that you are misquoting again @twicemummy1

I actually said that Having a learning disability does not affect your ability to enjoy sex, it does of course make you vulnerable and susceptible to abuse

I was making the point that adults with Learning disabilities are not children and are not subject to the exact same thoughts and desires as children.

I speak not as a ‘pimp’ but as the relative and friend of adults with learning disabilities.and find your comments deeply insulting.

Also twicemummy you seem to have missed the fairly crucial point that if the baby was born and the grandmother took care of it then that might well mean the actual vulnerable woman at the heart of this case losing her home.