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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

999 replies

Gingerkittykat · 22/06/2019 14:24

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 22/06/2019 14:51

The 'mental age' thing is sloppy and not descriptive of capacity. I'm amazed it's being used, possibly just illustratively. Because adults with LDs aren't like children. And infantilizing them leads to really dodgy conclusions. Imagine being a 20 year old, no capacity to consent, but all the hormones and desires any adult would have. Also, looking adult. And often the other party in the relationship is also an adult with LDs. And they are happy to have sex, it feels nice, just not with any capacity to understand the implications. Not the same as a groomed and abused child at all. (Sometimes it absolutely is though, NT adults do have horribly abusive relationships with adults with LDs.) Still a massive failure of someone's duty of care but not the same. Also giving birth physically is completely different in children.

Having said that, I wonder how much of this is because the mother completely failed to protect her vulnerable daughter and has offered to raise the child, meaning that a baby could be at risk. The mother appears to not agree with the SWs about her DD's ability to consent or to parent, which is extremely worrying.

SWs are sometimes faced with impossible situations where there will absolutely be harm and they have to try to recommend a course of action with the least harm to the most vulnerable people. It's heart-breaking and I'm very glad I don't have to do it any more.

Forced abortion seems barbaric but the young woman will probably have no capacity to understand the birth either and that could be extremely traumatic too. Plus having the baby removed. Sad

Loopytiles · 22/06/2019 14:54

We can’t see the details of the judgment, so can’t give informed views.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 22/06/2019 14:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CremeEggThief · 22/06/2019 15:00

I agree with the judge in this instance, although it's horrendous that the pregnancy has advanced to this stage. I really hope the rapist who impregnated this poor young woman will be found and convicted.

And I say this as someone who would rather see the abortion limit reduced to 12 weeks of pregnancy, in most cases.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/06/2019 15:05

Thanks for that blog @SpartacusAutisticusAHF it explains what I was trying to say. Adults with LDs aren't children and they shouldn't be compared with them.

MrsElizabethShelby · 22/06/2019 15:05

@LoafofSellotape no she won't you get put to sleep and they do a procedure called 'dilation and evacuation'

Barracker · 22/06/2019 15:07

I freely admit I cannot possibly offer an opinion on this.
Whoever makes this near impossible judgement has to balance capacity against wishes against harm.

In cases like this I desperately hope that the law has been constructed to execute that impossible ethical task with immense intelligence and compassion.

It feels like blind faith.

If I had the money, I would attempt to undertake a postgraduate degree in bioethics. I care that decisions such as these are informed by people who care passionately about doing the best they can for people in challenging ethical dilemmas.

I'm not reassured that this field has an abundance of such people, or that they are effective when the situation arises.

LassOfFyvie · 22/06/2019 15:08

If an actual 9 year old got pregnant I think it would be up to her parents to decide what's best for her, the same with any other medical decision

Well that's a sweeping generalisation if ever there was one. The parents of a pregnant 9 year old may equally be the last people in the world fit to make any decisions about what is best for her.

Mrs TP makes good points about a physically and sexually mature bodies but minds which have no comprehension of what that means beyond it feels nice. The father might very well be a person with serious learning difficulties.

I think this is the right decision.

CharlieParley · 22/06/2019 15:10

True, we do not know enough to make an informed judgement here.

I would just like to add that I have experience of a similar case. The baby almost died after birth and continues to be negatively impacted by what in the end were only 5 months with the birth parents (and not even those solidly). Bunch of well meaning (don't believe it for a second!) social workers thought it'd be okay. I was 13 at the time and even I could tell it was very bad for the baby. I couldn't properly explain why, but my parents understood. And that was birth parents with a mental age of (at most) 13 btw.

SisterMaryLoquacious · 22/06/2019 15:16

Insofar as I have followed similar cases they’ve mostly seemed to have been decided with care and compassion by the judges in almost impossible circumstances- and the story revealed is often the polar opposite of the initial tabloid headline/Mumsnet thread title version of events.

In this case the judge had three choices - forced birth, forced caesarean or forced abortion. I don’t envy them.

I wish the young woman well and if she was raped (not necessarily the case) I hope the man gets appropriate punishment.

TooMuch87 · 22/06/2019 15:17

She did not “fall pregnant” She was raped.

You don’t actually know this though. It’s possible the father has equally severe learning difficulties and they were both willing participants.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/06/2019 15:17

I'm not reassured that this field has an abundance of such people, or that they are effective when the situation arises.

That may be true but working for SS I was involved in decisions like this and believe me when I tell you SWs, psychologists, therapists and carers agonised over these decisions. 3am, can't sleep, trying to see a way something could be done that wouldn't harm people or end up with serious abuse or death. All without half of the information because people lie to SS all the time. And with a caseload of real people that are all urgent because you don't have just one case at a time.

The realities of these situations are murky, open to interpretation, half-hidden and ethically impossible. And there are real people suffering. Having an LD doesn't make your pain less or your horror at losing a child less or your desperation to have a relationship less. It does mean you have less power though.

Imagine being madly in love with your BF, who also has an LD and a SW comes along and tells you you aren't allowed to see them any more. He's your only friend, you enjoy being with him. You don't have a job, school, other relationships that are equal. But some SW looked at capacity and now you can't see each other any more. And you see TV and on the street, people with happy relationships and babies and you desperately want a baby, just as much as a NT person. It's awful.

TemporaryPermanent · 22/06/2019 15:22

Thank you for the posts on this thread, especially mrsterrypratchett and barracker but all of them.

floraloctopus · 22/06/2019 15:25

How is she going to understand what's happening to her body? How is she going to understand the importance of good nutrition and generally keeping healthy during pregnancy?

As she is 22 weeks that's been an issue for sometime and isn't a reason to force her to have an abortion.

Whether she has an abortion or gives birth then something will be happening to her body which she may not have the mental capacity to understand. The default position should be for the baby to be born and then either her parents help her to bring up the baby or the baby is adopted - there are families out there who could adopt a newborn if appropriate.

It'd be different if she was only a few weeks pregnant but she's over half way and at 26 weeks over 90% of babies born survive.

Awning10 · 22/06/2019 15:25

I think at 22 weeks, you would have to go through labor and give birth.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 22/06/2019 15:27

What a tragic case and I second TemporaryPermanent with their thanks for some very insightful and thoughtful posts. Flowers

Saucery · 22/06/2019 15:30

Every option available is going to be ‘forced’, isn’t it? Such a complicated case.

joyfullittlehippo · 22/06/2019 15:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

twicemummy1 · 22/06/2019 15:32

I think forced abortion is almost as bad as forced childbirth. Very barbaric and it should have been her choice.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/06/2019 15:33

The default position should be for the baby to be born

I could not disagree more. The default position is that the rights, well-being and needs of the vulnerable adult are paramount.

LangCleg · 22/06/2019 15:35

SWs are sometimes faced with impossible situations where there will absolutely be harm and they have to try to recommend a course of action with the least harm to the most vulnerable people.

Great post, MrsTerryPratchett and particularly this. Social work and, by extension the court of protection, is often about making judgements on the least of many inevitable harms. It's harrowing work.

And again: reporting from the court of protection is most often done by particularly partial outlets and often with a limited understanding of the law, particularly on capacity.

I would not form an opinion based on media reports of any case. The full judgement would be needed.

This is not, of course, to say that SWs and the court of protection are infallible. Of course they aren't.

BertrandRussell · 22/06/2019 15:36

“I could not disagree more. The default position is that the rights, well-being and needs of the vulnerable adult are paramount.”
Absolutely this.

This is a hideous situation which ideally shouldn’t have come into the public domain.

LangCleg · 22/06/2019 15:36

The default position is that the rights, well-being and needs of the vulnerable adult are paramount.

This, this, this. Plus, you know, it's the law.

MrsMiggins37 · 22/06/2019 15:38

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

I don’t agree. I can’t see how it’s ever going to be in the best interests of someone with that level of mental incapacity to be expected to take on the physical risks associated with pregnancy and childbirth. Did she even have the capacity to consent to sex in the first place?

floraloctopus · 22/06/2019 15:39

I could not disagree more. The default position is that the rights, well-being and needs of the vulnerable adult are paramount.

The trouble is that either option is not going to be protecting her well-being or needs, whatever happens she is going to be seriously affected by this. Pregnant with a baby one minute and not the next - do we know if she can even understand what is happening if she has a termination or if she has the baby.

If she was to have a termination then there is no way that this should be allowed to get to 22 weeks. Those saying she should have an abortion, does she have no legal right to refuse consent?