Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

999 replies

Gingerkittykat · 22/06/2019 14:24

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

OP posts:
CharlieParley · 22/06/2019 18:13

Thank you for all the thoughtful posts about adults with LD and the explanations why it isn't helpful to keep talking about a nine-year-old.

I trust that the court in this case decided in the best interest of this vulnerable adult. In our case, SW decided the other way but the wider and very supportive, close-knit family was not informed. The birth parents were married and very much in love, both with moderate LDs and significant medical issues, which should absolutely have led to SWs making different recommendations.

As it was, the birth was traumatic and the baby neglected from birth because the parents had zero understanding of the complex needs of a newborn and SW failed to spot the problem despite several emergency admissions with malnutrition.

What that meant in practice was a baby who inherited its parents' LDs and assorted health issues, who ended up with a severe attachment disorder and severe developmental delays because of the neglect which also caused chronic additional health problems. Finally, an ASD continues to complicate matters.

It also caused all of the issues others have pointed out. The child was taken in by other family members at five months old and was later adopted by them. Because the new parents were not just capable but also experienced childcare professionals, they supported the child to develop to the very best of its potential. Which possibly made learning who the birth parents were even harder. It did indeed come as a huge shock, causing shame and embarrassment on both sides (although they overcame this over the course of about a decade).

So those assuming that letting the pregnancy continue is always better, might want to consider that frequently birth is not the end but the starting point of even more serious problems with an even more vulnerable baby at the centre.

BertrandRussell · 22/06/2019 18:14

“The bottom line is the woman should have just been asked in language she could understand what she wanted to do”

You know-I bet they never thought of that.......

EveryFlightBeginsWithAFall · 22/06/2019 18:17

I think if the mother is against abortion and contraception (going from this thread, I haven’t read it)

Then the judge may think there is coercion of a vulnerable adult by its mother.

CharlieParley · 22/06/2019 18:18

Oh and the birth parents, especially the mother absolutely wanted the baby. She wanted to be a mommy, as a pp put it above. She just didn't know what that meant and wasn't the least bit capable of being one.

Gingerkittykat · 22/06/2019 18:20

I'm hating the mother bashing going on here. We have no idea how the woman became pregnant, it could easily have been a carer taking advantage of her, being left unsupervised for an hour and having sex with a peer or any other variable.

She is currently 22 weeks, we don't know when her pregnancy was discovered. Enough time has lapsed for it to come to court. Who knows what her cycle was like or if she is already overweight so a pregnancy would be hard to spot. My friend has an adult daughter with LD assessed as having a mental age of 10 who they have worked with so she does all of her own personal care so possible nobody has seen the changes in breasts etc up close.

I think we all agree there are no good outcomes here, and whatever the decision has a long lasting impact on this woman.

OP posts:
Bespin · 22/06/2019 18:20

to be able to do that may have taken more time than they had to explain these complex issues to her and even then assessing her capacity in this would be hard. I am certain that as this as come from the court of protection all possible avenues have been explored as they will not let you get there unless they have

Propertyfaux · 22/06/2019 18:23

The biggest problem with the placing of an age range is that it is rarely linear. I know with my own son his age range varies between intelligence, emotional, behavioural. His understanding of questions and consequences cannot be defined by an age bracket. The medical profession so far have always calculated up rather than down.

ChiaraRimini · 22/06/2019 18:26

There is a long-standing poster on the MSE Families board who has posted diary threads over the last 10 years detailing her struggles with her adult children with LDs who have had children removed as they were not able to grasp the basic care needs of a child. The lady who posts has spent the last 10+ years of her life trying to hold her family together and look after her grandkids. The repercussions of a situation like this affect the whole extended family.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/06/2019 18:27

Oh and the birth parents, especially the mother absolutely wanted the baby. She wanted to be a mommy, as a pp put it above. She just didn't know what that meant and wasn't the least bit capable of being one.

And capacity is such a tricky issue. I have had a number of clients who can explain in vivid detail the consequences of something but not actually behave accordingly. So maybe you are looking at independent cooking. They can explain burning and under-cooked food and every aspect of danger involved. Then they switch the cooker on and put their hand on the element. With no warning.

Think about how you apply that to sex. And child-rearing. The mother can say, "the baby needs to be fed and changed and held and..." but shakes the baby the second they hold them. Unless there are 24 hour carers within arms reach at all times, there's no way to ensure safety, so everything is calculated risk. The risks are absolutely massive.

LangCleg · 22/06/2019 18:32

CharlieParley thank you for the real life example. Flowers for all concerned.

SauvignonBlanche · 22/06/2019 18:39

Yes, capacity can vary massively and can only be judged at the time on an individual decision basis.

anothernotherone · 22/06/2019 18:42

Gingerkittykat it's very true that the pregnant woman could very well be 22 stone for all anyone simply reading an article knows. It's very likely indeed she does all her own personal care - generally someone with moderate learning disabilities and no physical disabilities will do all their own personal care.

That's the thing, as thankfully is now established on this thread - comparisons to a 9 year old don't work on any level. Though tbh most 9 year olds can also wash, shower, hairwash and dress themselves.

She will have been having periods for at least 6 or 7 years so will be likely to manage them herself. They may be very irregular indeed due to weight and medication.

Of course she might be 6 stone and clearly showing from 12 weeks, she may have regular periods and no sense of personal privacy and need her mum's help with hygiene, but neither case is a forgone conclusion.

The people of both sexes I work with with this level of disability do go out alone, use public transport alone, have mobile phones and shower unsupervised. They are adults and have the right to live adult lives as far as possible.

They come home to a 24/7 staffed supported living facility and couldn't manage paying bills, anything buerocratic, completely independent household management or in most cases to manage their own medical issues. They need help resolving arguments and frequent reminders to shower, do their laundry, put plates in the dishwasher etc like teens. They live a lot like teens but a mental age assessment would put all of them below double figures.

They've lived longer than 9 years though so had 3 times as long to learn and practice certain self care and independence skills.

Some of them have no interest in a relationship but several of them are in committed relationships with peers and others want to be.

There really isn't enough information to make much of a judgement at all. In some cases someone with moderate learning disabilities can be supported to parent if they have a strong, supportive network of family and care workers and social workers. I know of two women with moderate learning disabilities living together in a 24/7 staffed mother and baby flat bringing up their children with significant support.

I suspect that in this case the mental health of the mother makes this impossible, and the background to pregnancy and wider family may complicate things further.

Firefretted · 22/06/2019 18:50

Another social worker here: not an LD specialist but work with mental health and safeguarding vulnerable adults. Thought I'd add a note on capacity, which is decision-specific and has a very specific legal meaning in this context. If you are pregnant, you can choose to carry to term, raise the child/make arrangements for its care or you can choose to terminate. To have legal capacity to make this decision, you have to:

  1. Understand the decision. It sounds like she wouldn't have been able to comprehend all the relevant information.

  2. Retain the information long enough to make the decision. We don't know how her LD affects her memory

  3. Be able to weigh up the pros and cons of the decision. Again, from the limited info we have it sounds like she was unable to do this

  4. Communicate your decision to others. It sounds like she could communicate her wish clearly.

If you're suffering from an impairment of the mind or brain and are unable to meet all 4 criteria, you're deemed to lack capacity. SWset al have a duty to maximise your capacity and understanding so they certainly would have explained in accessible language or using pictures etc.

If you lack capacity, a decision is made for you in your Best Interests, usually by your family, carers, care staff etc. BI decisions must consider the wishes of the person at the time, as well as what they would wish to do if they did have capacity to make the decision. It takes into account family and friends knowledge of the person but the decision is still in the best interests of the person, not their family. Obviously it has to consider the person's health, wellbeing and any risks of harm.

If there are concerns that family etc are not acting in the best interests of the person, that's when it may get taken to the Court of Protection. Again we've limited info but presumably the issues previous posters have raised re the grandmother are what sparked off concern here.

The judgement absolutely would not have been made lightly and I second others in the field who said that sleep will definitely have been lost over it.

FeministCat · 22/06/2019 19:12

I suspect the facts are much more complicated than people are assuming here. I doubt they just rolled into court and the judge took one look and said “abortion!”

As someone with an adult relative with Down’s, I feel comfortable saying being able to do one thing does not mean being able to do another. For my relative, that means he can work a job (in a place that provides work to disabled adults), he can compete in sports, but he can’t care for his own hygiene and there are always concerns with his ability to manage his reactions to new and repetitive circumstances. He is now in his early 50s and his 80-something year old parents still have to care for his daily needs, and now he is at increased risk of dementia but had an inability to self report any concerns. This is a full grown man who if he gets physical as part of this inability to manage his emotions and reactions to them, others have little chance to avoid injury to themselves if they are not bigger and stronger and even then.... I imagine this relative with a baby and...that poor baby. A colleague of mine also had an adult daughter with a significant mental disability. She can go to work a job, take bus on her own, go visit a friend by taking the bus. But she needs assistance in knowing when and what to eat, in knowing she needs to see a doctor if she is not well, and so on. If she had a baby, I think she would see it like one of her much loved but independent cats, something she could let be for hours and that could care for itself as long as you put some food out.

This woman’s own mother’s desire to raise the child is not relevant. This woman is not an incubator for her mother’s grandchild and it is clear from the information we do have her raising the baby would likely mean the woman herself needs to find a new home. For all the talk about the trauma of an abortion, how would that not be traumatic to this woman?

And the person on here implying the US is amazing and would have made this woman carry to term so grandma could have a grandbaby....sure, the laws across the states are super, and the eagerness to roll back women’s rights is also super. I mean it’s cool to separate families at the border and keep them separated as long as they aren’t American citizens, and as long as actual American citizens can force their daughters to carry pregnancies to term. Hmm

PatoPotato · 22/06/2019 19:18

This is horrific.

I do not think it's right to force her to do anything. From what I read, there were lawyers and another SW who supported her decision to not have a termination. I think that means something.

The other issue is that a termination is very physically painful and so how would anyone know if that wouldn't be even more traumatic to this person?

FeministCat · 22/06/2019 19:18

Even though she is far along, I believe that an abortion at this stage could still be done in a way to minimize trauma. This could be a situation where oral conscious sedation, IV sedation (during a D&E), or even a general may be appropriate (hysterotomy abortion)

FeministCat · 22/06/2019 19:20

From what I read, there were lawyers and another SW who supported her decision to not have a termination. I think that means something.

That’s how court cases work. It means the judge found the evidence of one side more persuasive than the other.

BertrandRussell · 22/06/2019 19:23

“From what I read, there were lawyers and another SW who supported her decision to not have a termination. I think that means something.” Yes, it means that true process was followed in this truly awful case. Which does not belong in the public sphere.

FeministCat · 22/06/2019 19:26

The other issue is that a termination is very physically painful and so how would anyone know if that wouldn't be even more traumatic to this person?

What do you base that on? We have no idea what method they may be using and I suspect she would be a good candidate for sedation of some level during the abortion that would mean no consciousness of what is happening or memory of events, be it a D&E or a hysterotomy.

I’ve had major dental surgery and other surgeries under IV sedation (not GA, which I have had for more major surgery) and I could tell you a thing about any of them except I remember going into the room and waking up. I had a surgical abortion as well under oral conscious sedation (earlier, under 3 months though) and also can’t tell you any memories of it other than I remember going to the hospital and I remember waking up very hungry and wanting pancakes.

You think going through childbirth and then being kicked out of her one home after if she is a safety risk to the infant is better?

FeministCat · 22/06/2019 19:28

*oral conscious can be a bit of a misnomer as many people have a nap during it...

PatoPotato · 22/06/2019 19:30

What do you base that on?

I had a miscarriage that I had to take misopropal for (same used for abortions I believe) and I have had planned c sections. The miscarriage was far far more physically painful for me.

FeministCat · 22/06/2019 19:37

She is not having an abortion induced by misopropal at 22 weeks. Confused

A hystertomy as an option for later term abortions is basically a c-section but a far smaller incision. They can also do a D&E.

My own surgical abortion was a D&E (albeit at about 10-11 weeks) and like I said, I don’t remember any of it other than going to the hospital and being really hungry after.

FeministCat · 22/06/2019 19:38

*Misoprostol

MrsMiggins37 · 22/06/2019 19:39

*Horrible fucking country. 22 weeks old. The grandmother wants her grandchild but the fucking state knows 'best'.

I am so glad to be an American.*

I’m so glad I don’t live in your vile country but instead in this one where women are more than incubators

WhereYouLeftIt · 22/06/2019 19:40

I read about this on another source (Sky News) earlier today ( news.sky.com/story/woman-with-mental-age-of-child-to-have-abortion-court-rules-11746576 ) which contained this:

In a ruling, Mrs Justice Lieven said: "I am acutely conscious of the fact that for the State to order a woman to have a termination where it appears that she doesn't want it is an immense intrusion.

"I have to operate in (her) best interests, not on society's views of termination."

The woman would be unable to care for the child on her own and the judge was concerned about the risks posed by the woman's behavioural and psychological problems.

She said the woman may have to leave home if the baby was placed in the care of the woman's mother.

The child could also potentially be placed into foster care.

The judge said she believed the woman would suffer more distress if the baby was taken away, rather than if it was terminated.

My reading of that - about risks - was that she may pose a danger to the child. Why else would she have to leave home if the child was placed with the grandmother? What would happen to this young woman if she had to leave her mother's care?

Aarghh, this is one horrible shitshow. All that can be hoped for is a least-worst outcome Sad Angry.